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I cannot understand the responses from people here and on reddit stating that the figure is totally made up and it can't be that much. reddit specifically is fi

I cannot understand the responses from people here and on reddit stating that the figure is totally made up and it can't be that much. reddit specifically is filled with people who are proud of how they pirate all ubisoft games because of the "terrible DRM". Indie games that have no DRM and great prices[1] have reported very high piracy rates, published games that have no DRM and very high ratings also have bad piracy rates[2]. Most people seem to suggest that piracy is a result of having a crappy product and the only way to stop piracy is to improve their product, so surely making their product free (therefore removing any need to pirate) solves exactly this? Why aren't people applauding Ubisoft for adapting their business and products to their audience (people that want to play games but don't want to pay -- and those that do want to pay, can)? It seems most people on the internet want to think that A] Piracy is not a problem B] DRM causes piracy C] If you have no DRM then your game will sell well D] Free to play is a terrible dis-service to gamers I don't understand what gamers want from companies like Ubisoft? [1] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of-goo-piracy-rate-near-90/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of... [2] http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/29/interview-cd-projekts-ceo-on-witcher-2-piracy-why-drms-still-not-worth-it/ http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/29/interview-cd-projekts-ceo-...

mattgreenrocks 14y ago
> I don't understand what gamers want from companies like Ubisoft? It's just like music: 1. AAA titles without paying a cent 2. Innovation, but not too much (being a newbie is a cardinal sin, remember?) 3. No DLC, just free content released periodically afterwards Piracy does quite a number on people with existing entitlement issues.
- elarkin 14y ago
  This isn't entirely an issue of greedy people having feelings of entitlement. Like many of you all, I do not know of anyone who pirates software, movies or music (ever since I graduated college) anymore. That's because the piracy rates in the US are much reduced compared to elsewhere in the world. International publishers, like Ubisoft, then feel that if they are going to sell their products in these high-piracy areas that they need to protect it. Then, because they have to protect it from the pirates elsewhere, they give us a crippled product in the US. If Ubisoft thought of its customers strictly as Americans, they would not have implemented all the crazy DRM stuff they have today. Regardless of whether you believe Ubisoft is justified in pursuing DRM at all costs like they have, the issue is /not/ primarily one of entitlement. http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2011/ http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2011/
rednukleus 14y ago
> I cannot understand the responses from people here on reddit You are lost again citric. This is hackernews, not reddit.
- citricsquid 14y ago
  Sorry, typo, it's meant to say "here and on reddit".
nnnnnnnn 14y ago
I think a reasonable view is: A] Unauthorized copying is rampant. B] This is not a problem; profitable business exists regardless. The most interesting part of the above statistic in my mind is how it shows heavyhanded copy controls have absolutely no effect. So you may as well not bother. The software industry is not and has never been under an existential threat from unauthorized copying. These numbers are solid evidence that it is possible to have a booming, profitable software industry despite a 95% unauthorized copying rate.
amalcon 14y ago
The problem is that "gamers" are not a monolithic group. People say contradictory things not because of cognitive dissonance, but because they disagree. As with most issues, there are more than two sides to this one.
AnIrishDuck 14y ago
> A] Piracy is not a problem. Piracy is a problem without a clear-cut solution. It is a modern incarnation of the classic free rider problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem). > B] DRM causes piracy I have been tempted to pirate games with onerous DRM (I haven't). That said, I think that DRM is a common excuse that pirates use to justify their actions. The point I'd like to make is that DRM and piracy rates have no correlation . The only legitimate purpose that DRM serves is to interfere with launch-day piracy. Once a product has been cracked, it only hampers legitimate customers. And there is no uncrackable DRM. The always-on DRM that companies like Ubi love to use just rubs salt in the wound. Now I, a paying customer, have to be connected to the internet 24/7 to play your game? When pirates don't? What's next, are you going to hire a goon to monitor me and protect your precious intellectual property? EDIT: I want Ubi to stop putting barriers between me and their products. I'd even be fine with steam DRM, but they need to cut the umbilical cord and let me play their games.
franzus 14y ago
> I don't understand what gamers want from companies like Ubisoft? The average gamer being in his teens I would say gamers don't know what they want. But in the end it boils down to: free stuff.
chaostheory 14y ago
One problem is that most of the large publishers ignore is that people who pirate aren't necessarily people who would buy the game if they had no option to pirate. Every pirated copy does not represent a lost sale.
Splines 14y ago
> C] If you have no DRM then your game will sell well All things equal, I'd choose a DRM free game over a DRM-encumbered one. Amazon's Digital Download service group often has Steam and DRM-free versions of the same game available - they probably have direct data that can show if "DRM-free = more sales" is true or not. (While Steam offers many benefits, the upside of not needing to launch the Steam client when you want to play a game is a big one).
tjoff 14y ago
Why aren't people applauding Ubisoft for adapting their business and products to their audience (people that want to play games but don't want to pay -- and those that do want to pay, can)? Because it is a "terrible dis-service to gamers"? Suppose I pirate all my games, what do I gain from F2P? A worse experience with constant nagging about buying useless crap. Suppose I buy all my games, what do I gain from F2P? A worse experience with constant nagging about buying useless crap. A got sick to my stomach for buying Battlefield 3 Premium, why? What I wanted was the expansion packs but to get that I had to pay for having double XP events, strategy guides, ability to reset stats etc. etc. If paying for something makes the play-field uneven you have effectively destroyed the value for both free and paying players. Piracy is a problem (but one illegally downloaded game does not equal a lost sale, I'd also be interested in knowing how many hours are being played on pirated vs. bought games). DRM does not hinder piracy, but it hurts paying players. If you have no DRM then no one will suffer from it (also you don't have to implement it and you won't have to fear the backlash from it). Free to play is a terrible dis-service to gamers. F2P is good for discoverability, it lowers the barrier to trying. In the old days we had something similar that we called a demo. The equivalent of today is to pirate the game and see if it is worth it. Now the barrier to buying is even higher since you'd have to take care of any progress made, uninstall, buy, install, redo all your settings and progress. Not defending it, but that is often the only way to try a game today - and with all the crap that's being produced wanting to try it out before buying is understandable.
- FreakLegion 14y ago
  > Free to play is a terrible dis-service to gamers. This isn't a priori true. Valve seems to have a good handle on non-sucky F2P, for example.

mattgreenrocks 14y ago

> I don't understand what gamers want from companies like Ubisoft? It's just like music: 1. AAA titles without paying a cent 2. Innovation, but not too much (being a newbie is a cardinal sin, remember?) 3. No DLC, just free content released periodically afterwards Piracy does quite a number on people with existing entitlement issues.

elarkin 14y ago
This isn't entirely an issue of greedy people having feelings of entitlement. Like many of you all, I do not know of anyone who pirates software, movies or music (ever since I graduated college) anymore. That's because the piracy rates in the US are much reduced compared to elsewhere in the world. International publishers, like Ubisoft, then feel that if they are going to sell their products in these high-piracy areas that they need to protect it. Then, because they have to protect it from the pirates elsewhere, they give us a crippled product in the US. If Ubisoft thought of its customers strictly as Americans, they would not have implemented all the crazy DRM stuff they have today. Regardless of whether you believe Ubisoft is justified in pursuing DRM at all costs like they have, the issue is /not/ primarily one of entitlement. http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2011/ http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2011/

rednukleus 14y ago

> I cannot understand the responses from people here on reddit You are lost again citric. This is hackernews, not reddit.

citricsquid 14y ago
Sorry, typo, it's meant to say "here and on reddit".

nnnnnnnn 14y ago

I think a reasonable view is: A] Unauthorized copying is rampant. B] This is not a problem; profitable business exists regardless. The most interesting part of the above statistic in my mind is how it shows heavyhanded copy controls have absolutely no effect. So you may as well not bother. The software industry is not and has never been under an existential threat from unauthorized copying. These numbers are solid evidence that it is possible to have a booming, profitable software industry despite a 95% unauthorized copying rate.

amalcon 14y ago

The problem is that "gamers" are not a monolithic group. People say contradictory things not because of cognitive dissonance, but because they disagree. As with most issues, there are more than two sides to this one.

AnIrishDuck 14y ago

> A] Piracy is not a problem. Piracy is a problem without a clear-cut solution. It is a modern incarnation of the classic free rider problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem). > B] DRM causes piracy I have been tempted to pirate games with onerous DRM (I haven't). That said, I think that DRM is a common excuse that pirates use to justify their actions. The point I'd like to make is that DRM and piracy rates have no correlation . The only legitimate purpose that DRM serves is to interfere with launch-day piracy. Once a product has been cracked, it only hampers legitimate customers. And there is no uncrackable DRM. The always-on DRM that companies like Ubi love to use just rubs salt in the wound. Now I, a paying customer, have to be connected to the internet 24/7 to play your game? When pirates don't? What's next, are you going to hire a goon to monitor me and protect your precious intellectual property? EDIT: I want Ubi to stop putting barriers between me and their products. I'd even be fine with steam DRM, but they need to cut the umbilical cord and let me play their games.

franzus 14y ago

> I don't understand what gamers want from companies like Ubisoft? The average gamer being in his teens I would say gamers don't know what they want. But in the end it boils down to: free stuff.

chaostheory 14y ago

One problem is that most of the large publishers ignore is that people who pirate aren't necessarily people who would buy the game if they had no option to pirate. Every pirated copy does not represent a lost sale.

Splines 14y ago

> C] If you have no DRM then your game will sell well All things equal, I'd choose a DRM free game over a DRM-encumbered one. Amazon's Digital Download service group often has Steam and DRM-free versions of the same game available - they probably have direct data that can show if "DRM-free = more sales" is true or not. (While Steam offers many benefits, the upside of not needing to launch the Steam client when you want to play a game is a big one).

tjoff 14y ago

Why aren't people applauding Ubisoft for adapting their business and products to their audience (people that want to play games but don't want to pay -- and those that do want to pay, can)? Because it is a "terrible dis-service to gamers"? Suppose I pirate all my games, what do I gain from F2P? A worse experience with constant nagging about buying useless crap. Suppose I buy all my games, what do I gain from F2P? A worse experience with constant nagging about buying useless crap. A got sick to my stomach for buying Battlefield 3 Premium, why? What I wanted was the expansion packs but to get that I had to pay for having double XP events, strategy guides, ability to reset stats etc. etc. If paying for something makes the play-field uneven you have effectively destroyed the value for both free and paying players. Piracy is a problem (but one illegally downloaded game does not equal a lost sale, I'd also be interested in knowing how many hours are being played on pirated vs. bought games). DRM does not hinder piracy, but it hurts paying players. If you have no DRM then no one will suffer from it (also you don't have to implement it and you won't have to fear the backlash from it). Free to play is a terrible dis-service to gamers. F2P is good for discoverability, it lowers the barrier to trying. In the old days we had something similar that we called a demo. The equivalent of today is to pirate the game and see if it is worth it. Now the barrier to buying is even higher since you'd have to take care of any progress made, uninstall, buy, install, redo all your settings and progress. Not defending it, but that is often the only way to try a game today - and with all the crap that's being produced wanting to try it out before buying is understandable.

FreakLegion 14y ago
> Free to play is a terrible dis-service to gamers. This isn't a priori true. Valve seems to have a good handle on non-sucky F2P, for example.