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Did "Big Oil" Sell Us on a Recycling Scam?
- givemeethekeys 1y agoPlanet Money (NPR) did an excellent episode about this. Short answer, yes, recycling is a scam. #925: A Mob Boss, A Garbage Boat and Why We Recycle
- crazygringo 1y agoTo be clear, plastic recycling is pretty much a scam. Recycling aluminum cans is fantastic. Clear glass bottles and corrugated cardboard are also great for recycling.
- diggan 1y agoHonest/naive question: If something like https://www.preciousplastic.com/universe/how-does-it-work https://www.preciousplastic.com/universe/how-does-it-work was in much, much wider use, would it have any realistic impact on the problem about recycling plastic? Since it's doing it in a very different way, and seems better at actually reusing the material.
- ahi 1y agoCalling it "precious" is just a bit too on the nose. That looks more like an art project than an actual solution. One of their shredders working 24/365 can get through <500 tons. In 2018, US generated 35.6 million tons of plastic. Industrial problems require industrial (or legislative) solutions.
- lesuorac 1y agoThe general problem is that new plastic is cheaper to produce than recycled plastic is to re-use. So, something like preciousplastic doesn't occur wide spread because it's more expensive and therefore worse under a capitalistic model. You'd need to add a tax to new plastic to change that fact.
- Dig1t 1y agoGlass bottle recycling is a pretty cool process, the “How It’s Made” episode on fiberglass insulation is awesome. They basically crush the bottles and make glass cotton candy out of it. It’s nearly a 100% conversion and it ends up going into creating new housing for people. Basically the best kind of recycling.
- ip26 1y agoLead battery recycling is pretty incredible, with allegedly 80% of the lead in a new battery being recycled lead.
- aerostable_slug 1y agoLead recycling is so successful that there are no longer American primary smelters extracting the metal from ore. All lead smelting in the US is secondary, making use of recycled materials.
- nofunsir 1y agoIn my area, most of the glass recycled gets sent to the landfill as a daily layer drainage cover.
- ploxiln 1y agoWhat gets me about public recycling communications/outreach/programs is that they always emphasize "recycle more" and never "recycle carefully". Really it should be "First, don't put junk in the recycling (do no harm). Second, if you have clean appropriate objects, put them in the recycling." In fancy office buildings and residential buildings around NYC I've seen inappropriate junk in the recycling all the time, practically every time I put in my recycling. Plastic wraps and plastic milk cartons in the paper. Paper and food in the bottles/cans. It's always unclear about toys and household plastic objects that very likely have additives that make them not recyclable. Nobody ever emphasizes recycling correctly, but in any documentary where they look inside recycling centers you see them dealing with machines clogged with inappropriate materials, huge bales of negative-value mixed materials, etc. This is the stuff that was getting secretly shipped to Asia for dubious handling because it was too low-value for actual processing/usage in the US. I don't blame oil companies, or manufacturers, really everyone has been in on this collective delusion: teachers, politicians, community organizers, everyone I see is all about more recycling, recycling good. While actually we've been trashing the recycling systems/processes for decades, while cheering it on. And I'm some weird nerd engineer type who cares if thing work or not.
- beAbU 1y agoI worked in a wework building for a while, there they made a huuuuge fuss about the separated recycling bin. We had to be super careful about what we put in which bins. My desk was near a kitchen area. Every day, without fail, the cleaner would come and empty the separate bins into one large bin when taking out the trash.
- bryanlarsen 1y agopost-industrial recycling of many different materials are even more fantastic than post-consumer aluminum recycling.
- Ekaros 1y agoIsn't glass actually bit questionable? The energy difference between pristine material and glass isn't very big. Unlike aluminium where it is massive. Still, it is probably good to remove it from other places.
- baggy_trough 1y agoRecycling plastic and much else besides is a well-known environmental fraud. The good news is that we have basically unlimited landfill space, so we don't have to worry about it.
- diggan 1y ago> we don't have to worry about it I guess for a certain subset of "we", probably pretty true. They're aren't exactly a silver bullet that magically solve the problem without any drawbacks for lots of other people though.
- kleiba 1y ago"It is cheaper to just make a new plastic product than to collect it and recycle it or reuse it," says Kristian Syberg, who studies plastic pollution at Roskilde University in Denmark. "That’s a systemic problem." Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-its-so-hard-to-recycle-plastic/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-its-so-hard-t...
- Suppafly 1y ago>"It is cheaper to just make a new plastic product than to collect it and recycle it or reuse it," says Kristian Syberg, who studies plastic pollution at Roskilde University in Denmark. "That’s a systemic problem." That seems like it might be implying there is a pricing disconnect. It shouldn't cost more to recycle, especially since people provide the used plastic for basically free.
- baggy_trough 1y agoThat would depend on how much it costs to convert used plastic into a useful form, compared to the raw materials. There's no reason to expect it to be cheaper.
- Suppafly 1y ago>There's no reason to expect it to be cheaper. Sure there is, the raw materials have to be mined and transported across the country and such, it's ridiculous that it's cheaper to do that than to shred existing material and melt it back down. Even if you're downcycling from something like soda bottles to something like fence posts or plastic bricks or whatever, it should definitely be cheaper to recycle.
- altairprime 1y agoYes, as presented by the article, they did. OP, if you’d like to de-clickbait the headline somewhat, consider changing it to: > “Big oil” sold us on a recycling scam
- t1234s 1y agoIsn't aluminum the only thing worth recycling due to using less energy then processing bauxite?
- 1970-01-01 1y agoGlass and other metals such as steel, copper, etc. is still worth recycling.
- JohnFen 1y agoAnd paper.
- chneu 1y agoMost paper can't be recycled because it's impregnated with too many contaminants. Unless you're recycling standard cardboard or newspaper it likely won't/can't be recycled.
- bryanlarsen 1y agoMost paper these days is hard to recycle. Paper recycling worked much better when most paper was newsprint.
- t1234s 1y agoOverall doesn't aluminum consume the most energy when processing from ore vs copper steel. I remember watching aluminum production on How It's Made and the vast amount of coal needed to produce electricity to break the aluminum out of molten bauxite ore.
- philipkglass 1y agoYes, aluminum is more energy-intensive to produce, ton for ton, than copper or steel. But copper and steel still take less energy to recycle than to produce from ore so they too are worthwhile to recycle.
- worik 1y ago
- xnx 1y agoIt's easy to be sold a scam, when you want to believe the lie. It's a shame so much time and money were wasted on the charade.
- ambyra 1y agoI feel bad for all the sorters that have to sift through trash, who know most of the stuff will just get thrown in the landfill. Some people treat the recycle bin as a second trash can.
- aaronbaugher 1y agoI've spent 6 months building a software program and then been told we wouldn't be using it. Sometimes work is just a paycheck. But yeah, it's nasty when you look in the big recycle dumpsters we have here and see the things people throw in there.
- dfxm12 1y agoEspecially on trash day when dog walkers go out of their way to throw their doggie bags in recycling bins on the sidewalk rather than the trash bin next to them. There's no real punishment for missorting recycling, but I guess it's hard to prove who did what when trash collection is the way it is.
- ortusdux 1y agoIt's very much like the invention of the concept of jaywalking. An organized effort to shift blame/responsibility. https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history
- thanhhaimai 1y agoAnother concept comes to mind: Identity Theft. It's a crime from a criminal to scam the bank. Instead of the bank being held accountable for mistaking the identity (or don't do enough due diligent), the concept shifts the blame to the account owner, saying it's their fault for having their identity "stolen", despite them was not involved in the scam process.
- ta1243 1y agoObligatory commentary on identity theft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E
- whycome 1y agoIt’s insane that the argument from the bank really just comes down to “but they said they were you!” An individual couldn’t pull that in any other transaction.
- const_cast 1y agoUsually it's a bit more complicated than that, and a reason why it's a big problem in the US is we don't have good ways to reliably gauge identity. SSNs got pushed onto everything because it's actually the only thing everyone has. Everything else is fragmented and optional. DL? State-to-state, fragmented, optional. Passports? Very optional, and expensive. Phone numbers? Much more universal, but the telephony system is not secure by any means. Usernames? Passwords? Well, we all know those aren't perfect security measures.
- whycome 1y ago
- golemiprague 1y ago[dead]
- andrewstuart 1y agoArticle is dated May 2025. The headline is a question. I thought it had been long accepted and known for years that plastic recycling is often owned by packaging companies that want you to feel good about the infinite plastic they spew into the world. I don’t believe in plastic recycling. I don’t put plastic in the recycle bin I put it in the garbage so it can go to the landfill. Landfill is not a demon landfill is the best place for toxic waste. We are obsessed with “keeping plastic out of landfill”, like disaster will ensue if we do it. And as a result we make terrible decisions like putting plastic into roads and calling that “recycling”, so the microplastic get ground out by cars and trucks into waterways, air, ground, food, kids, schools, homes and you. All in the name of the desperate need to keep plastics out of landfill, like it’s precious environment that needs protecting.
- yusina 1y agoNews flash, the vast majority of landfills' contents eventually also end up in air, food, kids, schools.
- i_love_retros 1y agoThere's no way most people will accept any change in their lifestyle that is inconvenient and potentially more expensive. And no politician is going to suggest/vote for the serious changes we need as a planet and risk not getting reelected. I see two outcomes here. One, we destroy the planet and ourselves. Two, violent global revolution that results in a world government that enforces more sustainable living. Unfortunately three, the overlords come and save us with their advanced tech, probably won't happen.
- the__alchemist 1y agoRegrettably, I don't think 2 will happen until it's too late, and agree that 3 won't. We are coasting towards one. Any other options?
- orangecat 1y agoAny other options? A lot more solar/wind/nuclear and geoengineering.
- barbazoo 1y agoTwo a) in a world government adapting to a shittier and shittier life over time
- i_love_retros 1y agoHmm star trek or mad max. I'll take star trek
- bastardoperator 1y agoMaybe we can get AI to recycle something... I'll see myself out...
- reillyse 1y agoI think you have it muddied a little. Consumers often accept less convenient options because it is the right thing to do. Humans are a collective species and we make sacrifices for each other all the time. Quick examples at this level plastic bag ban, electric vehicles, disabled parking etc. The groups who are kicking and screaming to try and avoid change is capitalist corporations. They will literally do anything to prevent a hit to their bottom line (they are perfectly happy to murder people for profit) and frankly should have no decision making power.
- Suppafly 1y agoUsually when an article title ends in a ?, the answer is no, but I'm pretty sure the answer is mostly yes in this case.
- barbazoo 1y agoPeople should look up how "waste disposal" works in their municipality and then act accordingly. Where I live, if you believe the annual report, more than 75% of material is what they call "recovered". They claim that this > contributed to the reduction of 125.2 thousand tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e) being released into the atmosphere (presumably from decomposition?) Genuinely asking, is that particular example a scam?
- koolala 1y agoI think "recovered" includes burning it. I can't imagine how burning recycling is carbon positive.
- jerf 1y agoOh, it's quite easy. If you'll consult this slick marketing diagram I have over here, as you can plainly see, the carbon coming out of our incinerator is brightly colored and can be plainly seen to be smiling broadly. It's very positive carbon. Whereas this carbon you see coming out of the tailpipe of this car is colored ominously darkly, is clearly wearing an angry expression, and for some reason, is substantially "spikier" carbon than the stuff coming out of our environmentally-responsible incinerator. Much more dangerous stuff. You wouldn't want to meet this carbon in a dark alley at night! It's all quite simple, really.
- NotAnOtter 1y ago> ‘recovery’ means any operation the principal result of which is waste serving a useful purpose by replacing other materials which would otherwise have been used By the definition, 75% seems very good. I'm not sure if that definition is a legally sanctioned term or if your municipality has some screwy definition of 'recovered'. But if it really translates to "If this service didn't exist, we would 4x our production of plastic" - then that does not seem like a scam at all. With that definition, a plausible extreme is they take 75% of waste plastic to create one single plastic cup. Meaning the production of plastic would not change if this program did not exist. If that's the case - then yes scam. TL;DR not enough info
- Simulacra 1y agoMost recycling just goes into the landfill. Back in 2015, Chyna start taking most of our recyclables. Then other countries followed suit. This resulted in 90% of municipal recycling programs in America shutting down. So unfortunately, even though it may feel good to recycle, that recycling is just going into the landfill.
- barbazoo 1y agoDepends on your local situation.
- megaman821 1y agoLandfilling plastic is fine. The problem is introducing disposable plastic to places without adequate waste management. If people are just going to throw their empty containers into the river, paper will quickly degrade and glass will sink to the bottom and eventually be crushed back into sand. Metals are usually valuable enough that they are collected for recycling, even in coutries without great waste management.
- yusina 1y agoThe vast majority of landfills eventually leak. It's overall a terrible way to handle this waste w.r.t. environmental impact.
- megaman821 1y agoRemoving all plastic from landfills wouldn't really change anything. Landfills are already lined to prevent leaking for decades and then there are monitoring systems for heavy metals and other harmful chemicals anyway.
- legulere 1y agoRemoving plastics from landfills would decease the sizes of landfills and thus costs to keep them up or to instead incinerate the waste. Decades aren't enough, as plastics basically don't decompose fully at all. Landfills are basically a high interest loan, to not have to pay for dealing with the trash today.
- legulere 1y agoFor recycling one of the hardest problems is separating plastics out from the rest. The rest is causing issues in landfills: landfill gas containing methane, which is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2, leachates contaminating groundwater. If you have the plastics already sorted out recycling them makes more sense even on the short term. It's also very easy to underestimate the costs of landfilling, because you have to keep them up basically forever. Having one person look after it for ten thousand years is higher than having ten thousand people look after it for one year, because wages rise faster than inflation.
- throwaway314155 1y agoSurprised this is news to anyone.
- EarthIsHome 1y agoYes they did. Reduce, reuse, recycle. While recycling is last in that mantra, it is overemphasized more than the other two. It shifts the onus of stewarding our environment to the individual rather than the corporations and militaries, which wreck our planet more than any individual can. They'd rather you not look at what they're doing to the environment, and instead look at the individual. Moreover, companies don't want you to reduce your consumption, they want you to keep buying their products. Reuse? Nah, here are products that are obsolete, buy the new model.
- tshaddox 1y agoFor what it's worth, the mantra I was taught in the U.S. in the 1990s was ordered "recycle, reduce, reuse," but there was no indication that the ordering mattered. We were just taught about all three things.
- kalleboo 1y agoI think because it rhymes better. I still remember the jingle in my head.
- xnx 1y agoReducing consumption is the ultimate taboo. That message is effectively censored from all commercial media.
- whycome 1y ago> commercial media They pause for breaks to sell you things and the pauses are unashamedly called “commercials”
- lm28469 1y agoAnything that doesn't imply infinite growth is taboo... Which is weird because it will for sure happen, the question is whether you plan it or suffer from it
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- omega___ 1y agoAm curious on peoples' opinion on chemical-level plastic recycling (e.g. https://www.lyondellbasell.com/en/sites/moretec/ https://www.lyondellbasell.com/en/sites/moretec/, am not sure about any other companies doing it), instead of just shredding and melting (physical recycling). To me it sounds like Star Trek-type replicator stuff.
- ZeroGravitas 1y agoNo. In places with functional government they actually implemented it at the cost of the producers. "Extended producer responsibility" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_producer_responsibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_producer_responsibili... It's not perfect but it's okay, and better than the alternatives. In the US they pretended they were going to do it then never did anything to put it into practice. When people realised this they didn't get angry at the corporations or the politicians they bought. They just decided that the thing that all the relevant experts recommended was a scam that they were too smart to fall for. See recent YouTube video "Does recycling even do anything?" by Simon Clark for some more realistic takes on recycling. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iOtrvBdRx8I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iOtrvBdRx8I
- xracy 1y agoWHy is your initial answer 'no' when the backend of the answer is functionally "But they got away with the recycling scam." Seems like your initial answer would actually be 'yes?' Specifically because the "non-functional governments were unable to implement this as a cost to the producers." Plastics producers are absolutely trying to shift the blame of these failed programs onto "personal responsibility."
- ZeroGravitas 1y agoBecause the scam wasn't recycling, it was pretending to recycle and not doing it. Just as a company promising to use solar energy and not doing so doesn't discredit solar energy. And as you can see by the reactions around you, no one is angry that the recycling isn't being done. They're angry at the recycling. A process that directly completes with big oil's product. That's the scam.
- xracy 1y agoSorry, how is recycling not the scam if they were actually just pretending to recycle and not doing it? At scale if every (or even 90% of them) solar company were pretending to get solar energy, I would absolutely consider it a scam Also, for the most part, my understanding of plastics recycling is that it doesn't really exist in practice. Glass Recycling, and Paper Recycling are actually able to reclaim most of the product, but plastic recycling is actually only downcycling where it can be used for a different purpose.
- ecshafer 1y agoI worked at an office that had 4 separate trash cans to split out things. So you got to stress out on if this disposable plate is in fact cardboard or paper? Or is the fact its covered in grease now makes it food waste? The cleaning service at the end of the day took all of the cans and put them in the same bag before putting it into the dumpster. Where presumably they then filtered the trash and recycling in some capacity (I forget the name). But regardless stage 1 was quite useless. However people were still aghast if I threw the trash in whatever bucket, because recycling is good.
- andrewla 1y agoThis article is very vague in its accusations. What, exactly, is the scam? It looks like the article is saying that companies involved in plastic production pushed for more recycling, while knowing that current plastic recycling capacity was not up to the task. What is the scam, exactly? It feels like the closest thing to a scam is that companies claiming to be plastic recyclers get all sorts of incentives from the government, and we as consumers are forced under threat of fine to recycle, but the plastic just ends up in landfills. I don't see the oil companies involved in this part of the equation at all.
- ChoGGi 1y agoRefuse, Reduce, Reuse, Repair, Recycle Arrrr