4 ms·

It's unclear why you think the educational system needs to be part of the social ladder. I'm imagining for example that all citizens are required to receive an

by lapcat 1y ago

It's unclear why you think the educational system needs to be part of the social ladder. I'm imagining for example that all citizens are required to receive an education, and demonstrate the same level of mastery in the subjects taught as everyone else, without grades or rankings. You might call it "pass-fail", but I resist that idea, because I don't consider failure to be an option, except in rare cases of learning disability.

pjc50 1y ago
> why you think the educational system needs to be part of the social ladder. Depends if you want the people running the country to be competent or not.
- lapcat 1y ago
  > Depends if you want the people running the country to be competent or not. In some sense, the goal of the educational system should be to make everyone competent. In any case, it's unclear what you mean by "running the country". Politically speaking, the people currently running the US are not competent, despite the fact that the educational system and the social hierarchy are inextricably entangled. Whatever kind of -ocracy you're proposing (I'm personally not proposing here that we abolish democracy), I don't see any inherent reason why a social ranking system and the educational system can't be separate rather than combined into one. When employers start looking the alma mater of applicants, their grades in school, and such (reportedly Mark Shuttleworth of Canonical is obsessed with high school!), that's when the entire educational system gets warped. Learning gets cast aside in favor of credentialism, and consequently, cheating to get ahead.
School-Cotton 1y ago
Do you reject the idea that some people are better at things than others? 99% of people simply can’t learn the same level of mathematics that a pure mathematician does, no matter how hard they try or how competently they’re taught, and then what happens in your system to people who would have been pure mathematicians?
- lapcat 1y ago
  > Do you reject the idea that some people are better at things than others? No. Of course not. > 99% of people simply can’t learn the same level of mathematics that a pure mathematician does Why would this be a requirement for all citizens? Perhaps you misunderstood "demonstrate the same level of mastery". I meant that there would be a specified minimum requirement, though we definitely shouldn't set the bar too low. What I would reject is social promotion, where students get to move along to the next level as long as they have a D grade or higher. This does not demonstrate sufficient understanding of the material taught. Grades are for ranking. I'm suggesting that we ditch grades and simply demand that everyone learn what we expect them to learn. If students learn more than what's expected, good for them, that's not a problem. > what happens in your system to people who would have been pure mathematicians I'm not sure what you mean. How am I preventing people from becoming pure mathematicians?
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    How do you decide who to filter into the more difficult and faster-paced classes that will prepare someone to be a pure mathematician, other than grades?
    - lapcat 1y ago
      I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "filter into" or at what level or stage of classes you're referring to. To a large extent, it's self-filtering: who is going to voluntarily take advanced math classes except those who are intered in advanced math? There are of course larger societal questions of how much schooling is funded by the government and how much needs to be self-funded. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but I had to take the Graduate Records Exam in order to get into grad school. But the GRE is not taught or administered by the university, so in that sense it's not part of the educational system. You don't actually have to be in the math department to take an advanced math class, though, and other students may take the classes as part of a PhD minor or just for some other interest.
      - 1y ago

by lapcat 1y ago

pjc50 1y ago

> why you think the educational system needs to be part of the social ladder. Depends if you want the people running the country to be competent or not.

lapcat 1y ago
> Depends if you want the people running the country to be competent or not. In some sense, the goal of the educational system should be to make everyone competent. In any case, it's unclear what you mean by "running the country". Politically speaking, the people currently running the US are not competent, despite the fact that the educational system and the social hierarchy are inextricably entangled. Whatever kind of -ocracy you're proposing (I'm personally not proposing here that we abolish democracy), I don't see any inherent reason why a social ranking system and the educational system can't be separate rather than combined into one. When employers start looking the alma mater of applicants, their grades in school, and such (reportedly Mark Shuttleworth of Canonical is obsessed with high school!), that's when the entire educational system gets warped. Learning gets cast aside in favor of credentialism, and consequently, cheating to get ahead.

School-Cotton 1y ago

Do you reject the idea that some people are better at things than others? 99% of people simply can’t learn the same level of mathematics that a pure mathematician does, no matter how hard they try or how competently they’re taught, and then what happens in your system to people who would have been pure mathematicians?

lapcat 1y ago
> Do you reject the idea that some people are better at things than others? No. Of course not. > 99% of people simply can’t learn the same level of mathematics that a pure mathematician does Why would this be a requirement for all citizens? Perhaps you misunderstood "demonstrate the same level of mastery". I meant that there would be a specified minimum requirement, though we definitely shouldn't set the bar too low. What I would reject is social promotion, where students get to move along to the next level as long as they have a D grade or higher. This does not demonstrate sufficient understanding of the material taught. Grades are for ranking. I'm suggesting that we ditch grades and simply demand that everyone learn what we expect them to learn. If students learn more than what's expected, good for them, that's not a problem. > what happens in your system to people who would have been pure mathematicians I'm not sure what you mean. How am I preventing people from becoming pure mathematicians?
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  How do you decide who to filter into the more difficult and faster-paced classes that will prepare someone to be a pure mathematician, other than grades?
  - lapcat 1y ago
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "filter into" or at what level or stage of classes you're referring to. To a large extent, it's self-filtering: who is going to voluntarily take advanced math classes except those who are intered in advanced math? There are of course larger societal questions of how much schooling is funded by the government and how much needs to be self-funded. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but I had to take the Graduate Records Exam in order to get into grad school. But the GRE is not taught or administered by the university, so in that sense it's not part of the educational system. You don't actually have to be in the math department to take an advanced math class, though, and other students may take the classes as part of a PhD minor or just for some other interest.
    - 1y ago