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Mixed feelings about this, as a pedal cyclist. Modern e-bikes are large and fast, and many of their riders ride unsafely and abuse bicycle infrastructure (whic

Mixed feelings about this, as a pedal cyclist. Modern e-bikes are large and fast, and many of their riders ride unsafely and abuse bicycle infrastructure (which have been designed to accommodate pedal cyclists, who did the work fighting for them), making bike lanes and bike/walking paths dangerous for unpowered users. I'm of the opinion that they should be licensed and treated like motorcycles/scooters/mopeds unless limited (and inspected) to operate below a certain speed. But restricting smaller e-bikes and pedal bikes from proceeding through red lights when safe is also excessive. Forcing cyclists to wait for when the cars next to them can move puts them at danger of right hooks. I've spoken with Cambridge MA bicycle police about this (who've been issuing warnings to cyclists doing this) and they were willfully obstinate and disingenuous to the point I wondered if they'd ever ridden a bicycle before. I believe it's called the "Dutch protocol" or something (EDIT: "Idaho stop"!), that cyclists should treat stop signs as yield signs, and red lights as stop signs, which is an accepted and safe way to adapt car infrastructure to bicycles. NYC and Cambridge politicians and police seem too thick headed to understand bicycle safety though. (Larger e-bikes I maintain should be subject to the same rules as motorcycles for lights and stop signs. They're immaterially different.) In any case, criminal summons is ridiculous. Abuse of power that is putting noncitizens in danger.

dylan604 1y ago
> I've spoken with Cambridge MA bicycle police about this (who've been issuing warnings to cyclists doing this) and they were willfully obstinate and disingenuous to the point I wondered if they'd ever ridden a bicycle before. So what is a bicycle police if not one that rides a bike?
- colanderman 1y ago
  Police that enforce bicycle laws.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    So there's so many cops in your area that they have some dedicated to just policing bicycle laws? Or is your area one of those where "with all other crime being solved..." that they are now policing bicycle laws? In my area, bicycle cops are the officers on bicycles, so of course they've ridden bikes before. In my area, officers that enforce bicycle laws are just, you know, officers.
    - colanderman 1y ago
      I really don't understand your point. Are you nitpicking the wording of my figure of speech? The officer I spoke to didn't understand what a right hook was, despite standing next to a bicycle.
Filligree 1y ago
From the other side: I live in Ireland, and own a class 3 e-bike. (That is, with motor assist up to 45kmph) That’s legal here, though in practice power limits mean I don’t get above 35-38 kmph unless the wind is on my back. However, the law states that I cannot use the bike lane; I must take the car lane at all times. I do that, of course, except when someone tries to run me off the road. I’ve been stopped twice by the police, though they weren’t sure what to do about me; one asked me to keep up with the traffic please. Right… In practice I cause traffic jams every time I cycle to work, but on the bright side nobody is going to miss my existence.
- colanderman 1y ago
  Thank you for your perspective. I've pondered but haven't been able to figure out the right solution to this in general, as I'd love e-bikes to displace cars as the dominant means of transport. Maybe a 3rd differentiated lane? The closest similar vehicle I can think of is the motorized scooter (e.g. Vespa). They can't (and shouldn't) be allowed in bike lanes. But they're too slow for all but dense cities. In my region, I know famously they're the source of lots of contention on the island of Martha's Vineyard (which has few if any bike lanes). But, in the States, most places that have dedicated bike lanes are dense cities. Vehicles can't legally or practically drive much faster than 30 MPH (~45 kph) anyway. Even as a pedal cyclist I can usually keep up with traffic. So it's largely not a problem here yet for the larger e-bikes to stay in the car lanes.
  - Filligree 1y ago
    Light mopeds (L1-a) like possibly the Vespa (I’m not familiar) are actually allowed and sometimes required to use the bike lane here. My bike is classed as a heavy moped due to the increased speed limit, although it's lighter than any actual moped. So that’s fun.
- consp 1y ago
  We have the same issue (Netherlands) though it is sort of condoned if you behave like an ebike (max 25, pedal only). Strange thing is the pedelecs are under the heavy moped category which must use the roads but in general is about the speed of the lighter category which can and mostly must use the cycling paths. I guess it has to do with the standardization of EU rules with the A(M) categories of driver license. Even weirder thing is the disabled peoples mini cars must use the cycling path and park on the curb. (NOT the bigger 45kph things which look like fiat pandas in size, those are never allowed on any cycling path despite people doing so). Though I guess since you have to be disabled to get one that sort of makes sense for safety reasons.
hbsbsbsndk 1y ago
You're looking for "Idaho stop"
- colanderman 1y ago
  Yes that's it, thank you!
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    Vaguely interested in what the hypothetical Dutch Protocol could be, though. As a cyclist in Boston you might not be aware of the overwhelming popularity of electric bikes in New York. Between Citi Bike and the delivery guys they are by far the dominant variety of bike. At this point it's wrong to think that electric bikes are stepping on the turf of the analog bicyclist.
    - colanderman 1y ago
      I was confusing it with the "Dutch reach". E-bikes are becoming dominant in Boston/Cambridge also. The Citi Bikes are fine, they're small and slow (and frankly the problem with them is new riders who are seemingly completely unaware of anything). It's the huge delivery bikes, the bros on pseudo-mopeds, and the humongous (and usually empty) baby-cart bikes (e.g. Tern) that are dangerous in bike lanes and mixed-use paths. (Again -- I love that these are displacing cars. I just wish they physically displaced the cars also, and not pedal bicyclists and pedestrians.) Our (Cambridge) bike infrastructure has really just come into its own after decades of advocacy by pedal bicyclists. So seeing it suddenly flooded with what are effectively mopeds and Vespas really hits a nerve, like it's 1990 all over again.
      - jeffbee 1y ago
        I think you'd probably better just get over your aesthetic reflex. Getting the family bike moms into your coalition is important to the future of American cycle advocacy. In Berkeley the local safe streets advocacy org is now easily 80% ebike moms. I could bore them with my story of how back in my day (ten entire years ago) I took my kids to school on a manual-pedal longtail, but I don't.
RhysU 1y ago
I don't accept that bicyclists are safe when they run red lights, cute name for the practice or not. Red light means stop until green. The red-light-running bicyclist blows past the stopped traffic that just had to safely navigate getting around the bicyclist occupying a vehicular travel lane, only to be forced to do it all over again.
- colanderman 1y ago
  The Idaho stop is explicitly not running red lights. You stop at the red light, and proceed when it's clear. No "blowing past". And we're talking about areas with dedicated and often physically separated bike lanes. We don't interact with you except at intersections.
  - RhysU 1y ago
    This is running a red light. If a car stops first then proceeds through on red it would be a red light violation. That's why it's a light not a stop sign. I don't care what special lanes are present. You're running the intersection and increasing the complexity for everyone else who is obeying their green light. The only vehicles that get to blow red lights are emergency vehicles with lights and sirens. Everyone else should be waiting their turns, including pedestrians and bicycles. And, maybe, rights on red (but not in NYC you'll note).
    - turtlemir 1y ago
      Have you ever been a pedestrian or bicyclist? That safest thing for a pedestrian to do is often avoid lighted intersections all-together and cross in the middle of the road when its clear. Crossing at an intersection is a great way to get a car doing a right turn or worse, a left turn right into you. >That's why it's a light not a stop sign. I don't care what special lanes are present. You're running the intersection and increasing the complexity for everyone else who is obeying their green light. The Idaho stop has you treat red-light as a stop-sign, you are not increasing complexity for the green-light drivers, because if there are ANY green-light drivers, you shouldn't be in the intersection. And if there were drivers with the green light, and you go thru, you are not doing the Idaho stop. >Blow red light Please, "blowing a red light" might not be a well defined term, but most accept it as going thru a red light, without stopping, at some speed. That is not the Idaho stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
craftkiller 1y ago
What was your desired outcome from talking to the police about that? The job of the police is to enforce the laws as they are, not pick and choose which laws they care about. The fact of the matter is, what you are describing is illegal. If you want that changed, you need to talk to politicians, not police. That's like complaining to a cashier about grocery prices.

dylan604 1y ago

> I've spoken with Cambridge MA bicycle police about this (who've been issuing warnings to cyclists doing this) and they were willfully obstinate and disingenuous to the point I wondered if they'd ever ridden a bicycle before. So what is a bicycle police if not one that rides a bike?

colanderman 1y ago
Police that enforce bicycle laws.
- dylan604 1y ago
  So there's so many cops in your area that they have some dedicated to just policing bicycle laws? Or is your area one of those where "with all other crime being solved..." that they are now policing bicycle laws? In my area, bicycle cops are the officers on bicycles, so of course they've ridden bikes before. In my area, officers that enforce bicycle laws are just, you know, officers.
  - colanderman 1y ago
    I really don't understand your point. Are you nitpicking the wording of my figure of speech? The officer I spoke to didn't understand what a right hook was, despite standing next to a bicycle.

Filligree 1y ago

From the other side: I live in Ireland, and own a class 3 e-bike. (That is, with motor assist up to 45kmph) That’s legal here, though in practice power limits mean I don’t get above 35-38 kmph unless the wind is on my back. However, the law states that I cannot use the bike lane; I must take the car lane at all times. I do that, of course, except when someone tries to run me off the road. I’ve been stopped twice by the police, though they weren’t sure what to do about me; one asked me to keep up with the traffic please. Right… In practice I cause traffic jams every time I cycle to work, but on the bright side nobody is going to miss my existence.

colanderman 1y ago
Thank you for your perspective. I've pondered but haven't been able to figure out the right solution to this in general, as I'd love e-bikes to displace cars as the dominant means of transport. Maybe a 3rd differentiated lane? The closest similar vehicle I can think of is the motorized scooter (e.g. Vespa). They can't (and shouldn't) be allowed in bike lanes. But they're too slow for all but dense cities. In my region, I know famously they're the source of lots of contention on the island of Martha's Vineyard (which has few if any bike lanes). But, in the States, most places that have dedicated bike lanes are dense cities. Vehicles can't legally or practically drive much faster than 30 MPH (~45 kph) anyway. Even as a pedal cyclist I can usually keep up with traffic. So it's largely not a problem here yet for the larger e-bikes to stay in the car lanes.
- Filligree 1y ago
  Light mopeds (L1-a) like possibly the Vespa (I’m not familiar) are actually allowed and sometimes required to use the bike lane here. My bike is classed as a heavy moped due to the increased speed limit, although it's lighter than any actual moped. So that’s fun.
consp 1y ago
We have the same issue (Netherlands) though it is sort of condoned if you behave like an ebike (max 25, pedal only). Strange thing is the pedelecs are under the heavy moped category which must use the roads but in general is about the speed of the lighter category which can and mostly must use the cycling paths. I guess it has to do with the standardization of EU rules with the A(M) categories of driver license. Even weirder thing is the disabled peoples mini cars must use the cycling path and park on the curb. (NOT the bigger 45kph things which look like fiat pandas in size, those are never allowed on any cycling path despite people doing so). Though I guess since you have to be disabled to get one that sort of makes sense for safety reasons.

hbsbsbsndk 1y ago

You're looking for "Idaho stop"

colanderman 1y ago
Yes that's it, thank you!
- jeffbee 1y ago
  Vaguely interested in what the hypothetical Dutch Protocol could be, though. As a cyclist in Boston you might not be aware of the overwhelming popularity of electric bikes in New York. Between Citi Bike and the delivery guys they are by far the dominant variety of bike. At this point it's wrong to think that electric bikes are stepping on the turf of the analog bicyclist.
  - colanderman 1y ago
    I was confusing it with the "Dutch reach". E-bikes are becoming dominant in Boston/Cambridge also. The Citi Bikes are fine, they're small and slow (and frankly the problem with them is new riders who are seemingly completely unaware of anything). It's the huge delivery bikes, the bros on pseudo-mopeds, and the humongous (and usually empty) baby-cart bikes (e.g. Tern) that are dangerous in bike lanes and mixed-use paths. (Again -- I love that these are displacing cars. I just wish they physically displaced the cars also, and not pedal bicyclists and pedestrians.) Our (Cambridge) bike infrastructure has really just come into its own after decades of advocacy by pedal bicyclists. So seeing it suddenly flooded with what are effectively mopeds and Vespas really hits a nerve, like it's 1990 all over again.
    - jeffbee 1y ago
      I think you'd probably better just get over your aesthetic reflex. Getting the family bike moms into your coalition is important to the future of American cycle advocacy. In Berkeley the local safe streets advocacy org is now easily 80% ebike moms. I could bore them with my story of how back in my day (ten entire years ago) I took my kids to school on a manual-pedal longtail, but I don't.

RhysU 1y ago

I don't accept that bicyclists are safe when they run red lights, cute name for the practice or not. Red light means stop until green. The red-light-running bicyclist blows past the stopped traffic that just had to safely navigate getting around the bicyclist occupying a vehicular travel lane, only to be forced to do it all over again.

colanderman 1y ago
The Idaho stop is explicitly not running red lights. You stop at the red light, and proceed when it's clear. No "blowing past". And we're talking about areas with dedicated and often physically separated bike lanes. We don't interact with you except at intersections.
- RhysU 1y ago
  This is running a red light. If a car stops first then proceeds through on red it would be a red light violation. That's why it's a light not a stop sign. I don't care what special lanes are present. You're running the intersection and increasing the complexity for everyone else who is obeying their green light. The only vehicles that get to blow red lights are emergency vehicles with lights and sirens. Everyone else should be waiting their turns, including pedestrians and bicycles. And, maybe, rights on red (but not in NYC you'll note).
  - turtlemir 1y ago
    Have you ever been a pedestrian or bicyclist? That safest thing for a pedestrian to do is often avoid lighted intersections all-together and cross in the middle of the road when its clear. Crossing at an intersection is a great way to get a car doing a right turn or worse, a left turn right into you. >That's why it's a light not a stop sign. I don't care what special lanes are present. You're running the intersection and increasing the complexity for everyone else who is obeying their green light. The Idaho stop has you treat red-light as a stop-sign, you are not increasing complexity for the green-light drivers, because if there are ANY green-light drivers, you shouldn't be in the intersection. And if there were drivers with the green light, and you go thru, you are not doing the Idaho stop. >Blow red light Please, "blowing a red light" might not be a well defined term, but most accept it as going thru a red light, without stopping, at some speed. That is not the Idaho stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop

craftkiller 1y ago

What was your desired outcome from talking to the police about that? The job of the police is to enforce the laws as they are, not pick and choose which laws they care about. The fact of the matter is, what you are describing is illegal. If you want that changed, you need to talk to politicians, not police. That's like complaining to a cashier about grocery prices.