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You really seem to be reaching there. I think we should face it - the EC does anti-democratic stuff, and is appointed, not elected, and far enough removed from

You really seem to be reaching there. I think we should face it - the EC does anti-democratic stuff, and is appointed, not elected, and far enough removed from democratic control that it really can’t be (and shouldn’t have ever been) considered ‘democratic’. Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that…

littlestymaar 1y ago
> and is appointed, not elected Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet. > Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that… It is because the head of states kept that power for themselves (as the European Council). If this nightmare of a bill passes it will be: - 1. because the state leaders pushed for it as members of the European Council. - 2. Because ministers of the Interior of all member states approved it in the Interior meeting of the Council of the ministers of the EU (also called simply “Council”, it's a distinct body from the “European Council” which regroups the heads of states). - 3. Because the European Parliament approved it. In all cases it won't be the fault of “bureaucrates” but of elected politicians (like how the Patriot Act or DMCA were bipartisan pushes detrimental to everyone's freedom).
- stephen_g 1y ago
  > Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet What? Both houses of the Federal Government of my country (I’m not in the EU), as well as the state/province level and the local level are elected, and I know that is the case for many others…
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Why are you talking about House, the European Parliament is directly elected as well. I'm talking about the government, which is a group of nominated ministers (nominated either by a prime minister or a president, and only the later is elected directly). Take the US for instance: no citizen ever elected Rubio, Bessent, Hegseth, Bondi and co. as members of the Trump cabinet. The US citizens voted Trump, then he appointed them and Senate approved each of them after an individual hearing. That's exactly how it works for the European Commissioners too, except the nomination doesn't come from one president but the European Council, which is made of the 27th heads of states of the EU.
    - stephen_g 1y ago
      In Australia our cabinet is made up of elected Members of Parliament. They are appointed to their ministry but only our of the pool of elected MPs in the party or coalition with a majority.
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        Good to know, this is definitely an exception in World's democracies though. (And if you checked the European Commissioners, most of them have been elected before and a handful were members of the Parliament right before their nomination. They are definitely politicians and not bureaucrats)

littlestymaar 1y ago

> and is appointed, not elected Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet. > Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that… It is because the head of states kept that power for themselves (as the European Council). If this nightmare of a bill passes it will be: - 1. because the state leaders pushed for it as members of the European Council. - 2. Because ministers of the Interior of all member states approved it in the Interior meeting of the Council of the ministers of the EU (also called simply “Council”, it's a distinct body from the “European Council” which regroups the heads of states). - 3. Because the European Parliament approved it. In all cases it won't be the fault of “bureaucrates” but of elected politicians (like how the Patriot Act or DMCA were bipartisan pushes detrimental to everyone's freedom).

stephen_g 1y ago
> Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet What? Both houses of the Federal Government of my country (I’m not in the EU), as well as the state/province level and the local level are elected, and I know that is the case for many others…
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Why are you talking about House, the European Parliament is directly elected as well. I'm talking about the government, which is a group of nominated ministers (nominated either by a prime minister or a president, and only the later is elected directly). Take the US for instance: no citizen ever elected Rubio, Bessent, Hegseth, Bondi and co. as members of the Trump cabinet. The US citizens voted Trump, then he appointed them and Senate approved each of them after an individual hearing. That's exactly how it works for the European Commissioners too, except the nomination doesn't come from one president but the European Council, which is made of the 27th heads of states of the EU.
  - stephen_g 1y ago
    In Australia our cabinet is made up of elected Members of Parliament. They are appointed to their ministry but only our of the pool of elected MPs in the party or coalition with a majority.
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      Good to know, this is definitely an exception in World's democracies though. (And if you checked the European Commissioners, most of them have been elected before and a handful were members of the Parliament right before their nomination. They are definitely politicians and not bureaucrats)