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> for the things the EU bureaucracy is doing, While I agree with the rest of your comment, it doesn't make sens to talk about “bureaucracy” here, the Commissio

> for the things the EU bureaucracy is doing, While I agree with the rest of your comment, it doesn't make sens to talk about “bureaucracy” here, the Commission isn't a “bureaucracy” (which means unelected civil servants), and more like a government (the commission is proposed by head of European states and approved by parliament). That doesn't change anything to the problem though, Western democracies have been doing creepier and creepier stuff year after years when it comes to mass surveillance.

stephen_g 1y ago
You really seem to be reaching there. I think we should face it - the EC does anti-democratic stuff, and is appointed, not elected, and far enough removed from democratic control that it really can’t be (and shouldn’t have ever been) considered ‘democratic’. Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that…
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  > and is appointed, not elected Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet. > Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that… It is because the head of states kept that power for themselves (as the European Council). If this nightmare of a bill passes it will be: - 1. because the state leaders pushed for it as members of the European Council. - 2. Because ministers of the Interior of all member states approved it in the Interior meeting of the Council of the ministers of the EU (also called simply “Council”, it's a distinct body from the “European Council” which regroups the heads of states). - 3. Because the European Parliament approved it. In all cases it won't be the fault of “bureaucrates” but of elected politicians (like how the Patriot Act or DMCA were bipartisan pushes detrimental to everyone's freedom).
  - stephen_g 1y ago
    > Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet What? Both houses of the Federal Government of my country (I’m not in the EU), as well as the state/province level and the local level are elected, and I know that is the case for many others…
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      Why are you talking about House, the European Parliament is directly elected as well. I'm talking about the government, which is a group of nominated ministers (nominated either by a prime minister or a president, and only the later is elected directly). Take the US for instance: no citizen ever elected Rubio, Bessent, Hegseth, Bondi and co. as members of the Trump cabinet. The US citizens voted Trump, then he appointed them and Senate approved each of them after an individual hearing. That's exactly how it works for the European Commissioners too, except the nomination doesn't come from one president but the European Council, which is made of the 27th heads of states of the EU.
      - stephen_g 1y ago
        In Australia our cabinet is made up of elected Members of Parliament. They are appointed to their ministry but only our of the pool of elected MPs in the party or coalition with a majority.
        littlestymaar 1y ago
        Good to know, this is definitely an exception in World's democracies though. (And if you checked the European Commissioners, most of them have been elected before and a handful were members of the Parliament right before their nomination. They are definitely politicians and not bureaucrats)
account42 1y ago
> While I agree with the rest of your comment, it doesn't make sens to talk about “bureaucracy” here, the Commission isn't a “bureaucracy” (which means unelected civil servants), and more like a government (the commission is proposed by head of European states and approved by parliament). This is at best a difference of degrees. Neither the commissioners nor the civil servants have their names on a democratic ballot or are otherwise considered in any real way during the election process but both are indirectly chosen by the elected government. The question is how many degrees of separation do you need before the democratic elections no longer have an effect on the rulers chosen at the end - and the answer is probably not that many.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  > Neither the commissioners nor the civil servants have their names on a democratic ballot or are otherwise considered in any real way during the election process Neither is any minister in most democratic country. You don't get to vote for the Secretary of the Treasury or any member of the government directly in most systems. Presidential systems have an exception in the person of the president, who is personally elected, but everybody else is appointed and merely approved by the parliament. In the European parliament, the EPP won the parliamentary elections last June, and they approved the nomination of the Von der Leyen Commission, like how the Starmer Cabinet got approved by the House after the Labour won the elections. The real difference is that nobody really cares about the European parliamentary elections: in pretty much every country it works like some kind of intermediate election for national parties to assess their strength, and they don't really campaign as members of EPP or S&D and mostly as members of their own national body without any consideration for European politics. And that's quite a serious problem. The EU has many institutional issues (most of them deriving from the fact that individual state leaders refuse to give more power to the EU), but the Commission members not being individually elected isn't one of them.

stephen_g 1y ago

You really seem to be reaching there. I think we should face it - the EC does anti-democratic stuff, and is appointed, not elected, and far enough removed from democratic control that it really can’t be (and shouldn’t have ever been) considered ‘democratic’. Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that…

littlestymaar 1y ago
> and is appointed, not elected Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet. > Having an actually elected body (the EU Parliament) and then not letting them initiate legislation is just a joke on top of that… It is because the head of states kept that power for themselves (as the European Council). If this nightmare of a bill passes it will be: - 1. because the state leaders pushed for it as members of the European Council. - 2. Because ministers of the Interior of all member states approved it in the Interior meeting of the Council of the ministers of the EU (also called simply “Council”, it's a distinct body from the “European Council” which regroups the heads of states). - 3. Because the European Parliament approved it. In all cases it won't be the fault of “bureaucrates” but of elected politicians (like how the Patriot Act or DMCA were bipartisan pushes detrimental to everyone's freedom).
- stephen_g 1y ago
  > Like in pretty much every democratic government on the planet What? Both houses of the Federal Government of my country (I’m not in the EU), as well as the state/province level and the local level are elected, and I know that is the case for many others…
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Why are you talking about House, the European Parliament is directly elected as well. I'm talking about the government, which is a group of nominated ministers (nominated either by a prime minister or a president, and only the later is elected directly). Take the US for instance: no citizen ever elected Rubio, Bessent, Hegseth, Bondi and co. as members of the Trump cabinet. The US citizens voted Trump, then he appointed them and Senate approved each of them after an individual hearing. That's exactly how it works for the European Commissioners too, except the nomination doesn't come from one president but the European Council, which is made of the 27th heads of states of the EU.
    - stephen_g 1y ago
      In Australia our cabinet is made up of elected Members of Parliament. They are appointed to their ministry but only our of the pool of elected MPs in the party or coalition with a majority.
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        Good to know, this is definitely an exception in World's democracies though. (And if you checked the European Commissioners, most of them have been elected before and a handful were members of the Parliament right before their nomination. They are definitely politicians and not bureaucrats)

account42 1y ago

> While I agree with the rest of your comment, it doesn't make sens to talk about “bureaucracy” here, the Commission isn't a “bureaucracy” (which means unelected civil servants), and more like a government (the commission is proposed by head of European states and approved by parliament). This is at best a difference of degrees. Neither the commissioners nor the civil servants have their names on a democratic ballot or are otherwise considered in any real way during the election process but both are indirectly chosen by the elected government. The question is how many degrees of separation do you need before the democratic elections no longer have an effect on the rulers chosen at the end - and the answer is probably not that many.

littlestymaar 1y ago
> Neither the commissioners nor the civil servants have their names on a democratic ballot or are otherwise considered in any real way during the election process Neither is any minister in most democratic country. You don't get to vote for the Secretary of the Treasury or any member of the government directly in most systems. Presidential systems have an exception in the person of the president, who is personally elected, but everybody else is appointed and merely approved by the parliament. In the European parliament, the EPP won the parliamentary elections last June, and they approved the nomination of the Von der Leyen Commission, like how the Starmer Cabinet got approved by the House after the Labour won the elections. The real difference is that nobody really cares about the European parliamentary elections: in pretty much every country it works like some kind of intermediate election for national parties to assess their strength, and they don't really campaign as members of EPP or S&D and mostly as members of their own national body without any consideration for European politics. And that's quite a serious problem. The EU has many institutional issues (most of them deriving from the fact that individual state leaders refuse to give more power to the EU), but the Commission members not being individually elected isn't one of them.