6 ms·

One of my most problematic faves. It's quite well-written, and the way the singularity unfolds is compellingly imagined. It's one of the few pieces of fiction

One of my most problematic faves. It's quite well-written, and the way the singularity unfolds is compellingly imagined. It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. The streaks of graphic violence, though hard to stomach, serve to underscore this theme in a provocative way. And Caroline is fantastic. That last chapter, though. It's so bizarre, so fetishistic, so needlessly squicky, that it just about ruins everything that came before. IMHO, it would be better if it just ended at the cliffhanger in the penultimate chapter. That said, I'd love to read the long-awaited sequel (The Transmigration of Prime Intellect). I've also heard rumblings of a movie deal, though one likely consigned to either development hell or a rewrite that leaves it an adaptation in name only.

altairprime 1y ago
Second this. The main story remains relevant to this day. I remember clearly where I was when I read it for the first time in 2001. I read most of it every ten years or so. However. The last chapter is explicit in a way that is unnecessary and does not contribute to the story. It may be illegal in some jurisdictions, depending on how strict the laws are. There are plausible reasons to select the path it takes but the explicit detail incorporated is awful, corrosive, and is solely responsible for why I can’t recommend the story to anyone. I should mirror the story and truncate the final chapter so I can share it with people.
- makerofthings 1y ago
  I read this book and liked it, but I don't remember anything really bad about the last chapter and having a quick scan of the linked page above, I don't see anything really out there. What am I missing?
  - Jordan-117 1y ago
    Fairly graphic descriptions of very underage father-daughter sex, so clumsily written and out of character it's like bad NSFW fan fiction.
    - makerofthings 1y ago
      Ah yes, my memory clearly didn’t want to keep that bit. It sort of made sense in the context of having a tiny number of people left. I read another book called Dark Eden that had some similar problems.
MattPalmer1086 1y ago
I can see why some will not like this book, but I loved it. Last chapter felt a bit out of place to me, but didn't ruin the book. Also waiting for the sequel - I still periodically check out localroger's site.
throwanem 1y ago
It's always fascinated me how the incest scene in the final chapter elicits this response, but the much more explicit rape and sexualized torture earlier in the book comes in for no similar obloquy. Specifically, the rape and sexualized torture with which the book approximately starts. This people are on board for, but not the other. Both are about twisted sex stuff, but only one actually upsets people who otherwise highly value the work. That seems inconsistent enough to require some explanation. The narrative is at pains to be clear neither is less consensual than the other, so that can't be the basis for objecting to one and not the other. There is also an explicit contrast drawn at length in the text between the twisted nihilism of a purposeless universe early on, and what occurs at the end: Caroline muses aloud that had she awakened next to the to-have-been-executed child rapist and murderer whose sexual fancies she had entertained within the simulation, her response would have been instantly and ferociously - and necessarily - lethal, while her daughter's controversial actions in the final chapter take place at Caroline's explicit urging - practically at her direction. So if the concern were that the moral center of the novel had failed, I would expect to see criticism on that basis, rather than a retail effort at censorship. Likewise, though it's been years since I bothered to reread, I don't really recall the quality of the writing changing, either; it's determinedly mediocre throughout, no less in the last chapter than elsewhere. Well, as I said, I've never understood why people so easily excuse the pedophilic rape and murder scenes early in the book, while what comes later is such a problem. It still seems inconsistent to me, but I have only my own experience of childhood rape and sexual torture at my now-dead father's hands to draw on, which here no doubt ill equips me to speak.
- Jordan-117 1y ago
  I'm sorry you had to go through that. On a meta level, the violence makes sense as an exploration of the boundaries of that universe -- Prime Intellect makes everything so anodyne and safe, that extreme (consensual) violent torture is one of the few ways for the jaded to feel anything anymore. Even then, the stakes are gone, so it becomes a more abstract experience of over-the-top, almost comical horror detached from any real danger -- pain for the sake of pain. And the pedophilic aspects are all roleplay among adults. The incest stuff is pointlessly gross, though. It's handwaved as a way for them to restore the population, but that doesn't make biological sense. It's presented as a sudden compulsion of Caroline's, who showed no inclination towards it before. It makes even less sense for Lawrence. And the girl is so young, and the descriptions so explicit. All of those are deliberate choices the author makes, and none of them really necessary except as some kind of pervy wish-fulfillment. (Plus, children cannot consent period, much less when initiated into it by their overbearing mother in an otherwise empty world).
milleramp 1y ago
There is also the short story A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace: https://localroger.com/k5host/casodycs.html https://localroger.com/k5host/casodycs.html For me it clarified ideas from the book.
LiquidSky 1y ago
>It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. I'm not so sure about this. It's hard not to see these kinds of "actually, paradise actually wouldn't be so great" takes as the ultimate sour grapes. See also: "actually, immortality would be bad". I suspect we can't even really discuss what "paradise" would be like or how people would react to it because it would be so different from all of previous existence. The best we can do, as in this story, is "the current world minus the bad stuff" and go from there.
- monkeyfun 1y ago
  I'd argue it doesn't at all say paradise wouldn't be great -- plenty of people are content with their lives, and there's plenty of options to functionally die or reduce your level of consciousness below one that will really be able to care about the future or be bored. Rather, it's a nihilistic dream from that place, free and limitless cyberspace; a heaven. A timeless place at the end of history. Perhaps read the companion piece (A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace), which illustrates how one doesn't need to spend centuries to become aware of the Meaninglessness of life, and yet simultaneously how Meaning can be created for individuals even at the end of history. I think a more interesting avenue to explore is the author's particular leaning toward sadism, as I find it a little unclear if his view is one in which sadism and domination is merely more interesting to explore for the stories, or if his particular view is that the most undiluted pleasure left in cyberspace is sadism or domination. Something which, for as terrible as it may sound, I think we can actually find possible signs of -- moreso Domination (or far less ominously: Mastery) than Sadism. I'll cut my comment short-er about here, but those intrigued by the idea can also explore the fact that in MoPI a character like Caroline isn't actually sadistic like many of those she meets, but absolutely spent centuries mastering skills and keeping busy with simple competition against others. Likewise she ties into my earlier points about Nihilism and Meaning, where it's pretty clear the ending is likely just the moment Prime Intellect's definitions of death blurred just as it also realized it could never make people like Caroline satisfied as long as she thinks she's in cyberspace. Notice she's engaged in many of the exact same activities she spent her time on in cyberspace and would have gladly been happy continuing on that way for countless centuries more while guiding her tribe lamenting her old age at the conclusion. (Aside: wow I'm so happy to see MoPI mentioned somewhere! It always feels so little-known.)
hildolfr 1y ago
It's one of my favorite short stories, but it gets 'squicky' pretty fast given that one of the first sexual encounters explored in the new system is about getting finger banged by an animated skeleton during a torture-fuck session.. To be honest I think the sex adds almost nothing to the story except detail and world embellishment--one could skip the scenes entirely and not miss much.

altairprime 1y ago

Second this. The main story remains relevant to this day. I remember clearly where I was when I read it for the first time in 2001. I read most of it every ten years or so. However. The last chapter is explicit in a way that is unnecessary and does not contribute to the story. It may be illegal in some jurisdictions, depending on how strict the laws are. There are plausible reasons to select the path it takes but the explicit detail incorporated is awful, corrosive, and is solely responsible for why I can’t recommend the story to anyone. I should mirror the story and truncate the final chapter so I can share it with people.

makerofthings 1y ago
I read this book and liked it, but I don't remember anything really bad about the last chapter and having a quick scan of the linked page above, I don't see anything really out there. What am I missing?
- Jordan-117 1y ago
  Fairly graphic descriptions of very underage father-daughter sex, so clumsily written and out of character it's like bad NSFW fan fiction.
  - makerofthings 1y ago
    Ah yes, my memory clearly didn’t want to keep that bit. It sort of made sense in the context of having a tiny number of people left. I read another book called Dark Eden that had some similar problems.

MattPalmer1086 1y ago

I can see why some will not like this book, but I loved it. Last chapter felt a bit out of place to me, but didn't ruin the book. Also waiting for the sequel - I still periodically check out localroger's site.

throwanem 1y ago

It's always fascinated me how the incest scene in the final chapter elicits this response, but the much more explicit rape and sexualized torture earlier in the book comes in for no similar obloquy. Specifically, the rape and sexualized torture with which the book approximately starts. This people are on board for, but not the other. Both are about twisted sex stuff, but only one actually upsets people who otherwise highly value the work. That seems inconsistent enough to require some explanation. The narrative is at pains to be clear neither is less consensual than the other, so that can't be the basis for objecting to one and not the other. There is also an explicit contrast drawn at length in the text between the twisted nihilism of a purposeless universe early on, and what occurs at the end: Caroline muses aloud that had she awakened next to the to-have-been-executed child rapist and murderer whose sexual fancies she had entertained within the simulation, her response would have been instantly and ferociously - and necessarily - lethal, while her daughter's controversial actions in the final chapter take place at Caroline's explicit urging - practically at her direction. So if the concern were that the moral center of the novel had failed, I would expect to see criticism on that basis, rather than a retail effort at censorship. Likewise, though it's been years since I bothered to reread, I don't really recall the quality of the writing changing, either; it's determinedly mediocre throughout, no less in the last chapter than elsewhere. Well, as I said, I've never understood why people so easily excuse the pedophilic rape and murder scenes early in the book, while what comes later is such a problem. It still seems inconsistent to me, but I have only my own experience of childhood rape and sexual torture at my now-dead father's hands to draw on, which here no doubt ill equips me to speak.

Jordan-117 1y ago
I'm sorry you had to go through that. On a meta level, the violence makes sense as an exploration of the boundaries of that universe -- Prime Intellect makes everything so anodyne and safe, that extreme (consensual) violent torture is one of the few ways for the jaded to feel anything anymore. Even then, the stakes are gone, so it becomes a more abstract experience of over-the-top, almost comical horror detached from any real danger -- pain for the sake of pain. And the pedophilic aspects are all roleplay among adults. The incest stuff is pointlessly gross, though. It's handwaved as a way for them to restore the population, but that doesn't make biological sense. It's presented as a sudden compulsion of Caroline's, who showed no inclination towards it before. It makes even less sense for Lawrence. And the girl is so young, and the descriptions so explicit. All of those are deliberate choices the author makes, and none of them really necessary except as some kind of pervy wish-fulfillment. (Plus, children cannot consent period, much less when initiated into it by their overbearing mother in an otherwise empty world).

milleramp 1y ago

There is also the short story A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace: https://localroger.com/k5host/casodycs.html https://localroger.com/k5host/casodycs.html For me it clarified ideas from the book.

LiquidSky 1y ago

>It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. I'm not so sure about this. It's hard not to see these kinds of "actually, paradise actually wouldn't be so great" takes as the ultimate sour grapes. See also: "actually, immortality would be bad". I suspect we can't even really discuss what "paradise" would be like or how people would react to it because it would be so different from all of previous existence. The best we can do, as in this story, is "the current world minus the bad stuff" and go from there.

monkeyfun 1y ago
I'd argue it doesn't at all say paradise wouldn't be great -- plenty of people are content with their lives, and there's plenty of options to functionally die or reduce your level of consciousness below one that will really be able to care about the future or be bored. Rather, it's a nihilistic dream from that place, free and limitless cyberspace; a heaven. A timeless place at the end of history. Perhaps read the companion piece (A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace), which illustrates how one doesn't need to spend centuries to become aware of the Meaninglessness of life, and yet simultaneously how Meaning can be created for individuals even at the end of history. I think a more interesting avenue to explore is the author's particular leaning toward sadism, as I find it a little unclear if his view is one in which sadism and domination is merely more interesting to explore for the stories, or if his particular view is that the most undiluted pleasure left in cyberspace is sadism or domination. Something which, for as terrible as it may sound, I think we can actually find possible signs of -- moreso Domination (or far less ominously: Mastery) than Sadism. I'll cut my comment short-er about here, but those intrigued by the idea can also explore the fact that in MoPI a character like Caroline isn't actually sadistic like many of those she meets, but absolutely spent centuries mastering skills and keeping busy with simple competition against others. Likewise she ties into my earlier points about Nihilism and Meaning, where it's pretty clear the ending is likely just the moment Prime Intellect's definitions of death blurred just as it also realized it could never make people like Caroline satisfied as long as she thinks she's in cyberspace. Notice she's engaged in many of the exact same activities she spent her time on in cyberspace and would have gladly been happy continuing on that way for countless centuries more while guiding her tribe lamenting her old age at the conclusion. (Aside: wow I'm so happy to see MoPI mentioned somewhere! It always feels so little-known.)

hildolfr 1y ago

It's one of my favorite short stories, but it gets 'squicky' pretty fast given that one of the first sexual encounters explored in the new system is about getting finger banged by an animated skeleton during a torture-fuck session.. To be honest I think the sex adds almost nothing to the story except detail and world embellishment--one could skip the scenes entirely and not miss much.