5 ms·

I can confirm this is the case when my organisation advertises roles they get inundated with applications. But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of

I can confirm this is the case when my organisation advertises roles they get inundated with applications. But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of top tier within New Zealand. I the past year I have turned down an unsolicited job offer and I am also aware of two or three roles in two organisations that are not being advertised for due to lack of available talent. New Zealand has a *lot* of potential, but this potential eventually ends up in Australia, London or the USA. Countries should aspired to be an anode, not a cathode. The politicians [1] I have spoken to about this issue generally don't consider it to be a pressing matter and are happy for New Zealand firms to move the HQ overseas if they are employing kiwis locally, in much the same way US firms might open an office in Asia to take advantage of lower wages. [1] One nice thing about New Zealand is that you can get face to face time with a Member of Parliament easily, and Cabinet Minister if you are persistent.

droopyEyelids 1y ago
Hard to make it an electricity analogy, when the anode is actually the source of electrons! But i got your point and agree
- irjustin 1y ago
  Such is my pet peeve. Soap box - Analogies simply don't help. They invariably have some flaw and rarely aid in actual understanding as is the case with the anode/cathode reference. I know 100% of readers understand that countries want to attract talent, but <100% of people understand anode+cathode functions. It gets worse when others attempt to build off the analogy and so it becomes flawed on top of flawed. At some point, semantic arguments begin, i.e. source of electrons, and now we're quite far from countries+talent. STOP USING ANALOGIES
  - malux85 1y ago
    You're making a huge assumption yourself - that the goal of communication is to appeal to the greatest number of readers. This is not always true and often deliberately not always true.
    - roenxi 1y ago
      Some of the best pieces of art are when a smart person wants to communicate a subversive idea to another smart person without anyone pedestrian arcing up. It can lead to wonderful comedy.
    - 7bit 1y ago
      "Appeal to" and "being understood by" are two different things. You can write a text that appeals to a small audience, but is understood by a big audience. You can also write a text that would appeal to a big audience - but doesn't because no one understands it. It's not hard to write a text that can be understood by a large audience. Using an analogy that only some people understand is counter productive as analogies are used exactly to allow the audience to illustrate the problem.
      - malux85 1y ago
        The core of my response was not about appealing vs understanding, but about the objective function being to max(number) with whatever operator (appeal or understand) But you demonstrated that in a beautiful way with your misunderstanding! How wonderfully meta! QED
  - agubelu 1y ago
    Would you say that analogies are like a sink where meaning and intentionality is lost?
    - HenryBemis 1y ago
      You brought in my mind the "Elon walking in with a sink" and saying "let that sink in".
  - 7bit 1y ago
    Analogies are a great tool to illustrate problems, to make the issue more accessible. So I don't think the issue is with analogies, but analogies that are far more complex that the issue he wants to illustrate. In the specific context you're replying, however, I agree that any analogy would not add any useful information.
  - npteljes 1y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree. I have both a hard time to grasp when others are using analogies, especially when they use phrases that are wrong in the public consciousness, like "fish rots from the head" - no, fish rots from the softer places first, or from wherever, the head is not particular. Pet peeve - soapbox is also used in an abstract way here, not better than the overuse of analogies. A whole century has since passed since people routinely stood on literal soapboxes. Furthermore, and I was (am?) guilty of this myself, people often use analogies and other kinds of abstract speech to hide the fact that they have no idea what is going on, or they don't know how to express something. And then the responsibility to decode meaning is passed on to the listener.
  - phendrenad2 1y ago
    Okay you have two complaints about analogies: They're leaky abstractions (people get tripped up on the mismatch), and people don't understand the analogy domain (and miss the analogy entirely). The former is mostly a problem for a certain kind of concrete-thinking persons, and the former can be solved by picking a more universally understood analogy domain (like puppies). So analogies can be good, given the right audience and analogy domain.
nigel_bree 1y ago
> But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of top tier within New Zealand Really? I'm aware of some extremely top-tier and wildly underemployed talent - the problem is that the NZ market has almost no companies that need or are interested in good people with hard skills - it's almost all very basic web dev. Pretty much all the veterans I know around my age are doing work beneath them to pay the bills or have switched out of development completely.
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  > But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of top tier within New Zealand > Really? I'm aware of some extremely top-tier and wildly underemployed talent In my experience it is incredibly hard to hire top-tier talent, but both of our experiences could simultaneously be true. Are these people you know actively applying for better jobs and not getting them? I know of three excellent devs who are IMHO vastly unemployed. At least two of them would struggle to get through a corperate interview process. The other is happy with the chill job they have.
  - nigel_bree 1y ago
    > Are these people you know actively applying for better jobs and not getting them? No, because the decades have worn them down. It's been a long time since there have ever been jobs in NZ advertised requiring hard development skills, and the tiny handful that do come up in public tend to be for very specialized verticals where they made hard demands on past experience in that niche area first and foremost over everything else. > The other is happy with the chill job they have I mean, I can't blame them for that - there are lots of toxic employers, ageism, credentialism, etc etc. If you're just going to be underemployed doing kiddie-level work anyway, better the devil you know, particularly if you have a family to take care of. It's all just a big old mess of market failure, though. The problem isn't that the talent pool isn't there, it's that since there's no VC money around, the firms that _really_ need that talent can't pay what the hungrier younger people (who want more than anything else to get on the FAANG gravy train) want and the fantastically talented folks mostly can't earn any kind of premium remotely matching their business value and so make lifestyle choices it's hard to pry them out of.

droopyEyelids 1y ago

Hard to make it an electricity analogy, when the anode is actually the source of electrons! But i got your point and agree

irjustin 1y ago
Such is my pet peeve. Soap box - Analogies simply don't help. They invariably have some flaw and rarely aid in actual understanding as is the case with the anode/cathode reference. I know 100% of readers understand that countries want to attract talent, but <100% of people understand anode+cathode functions. It gets worse when others attempt to build off the analogy and so it becomes flawed on top of flawed. At some point, semantic arguments begin, i.e. source of electrons, and now we're quite far from countries+talent. STOP USING ANALOGIES
- malux85 1y ago
  You're making a huge assumption yourself - that the goal of communication is to appeal to the greatest number of readers. This is not always true and often deliberately not always true.
  - roenxi 1y ago
    Some of the best pieces of art are when a smart person wants to communicate a subversive idea to another smart person without anyone pedestrian arcing up. It can lead to wonderful comedy.
  - 7bit 1y ago
    "Appeal to" and "being understood by" are two different things. You can write a text that appeals to a small audience, but is understood by a big audience. You can also write a text that would appeal to a big audience - but doesn't because no one understands it. It's not hard to write a text that can be understood by a large audience. Using an analogy that only some people understand is counter productive as analogies are used exactly to allow the audience to illustrate the problem.
    - malux85 1y ago
      The core of my response was not about appealing vs understanding, but about the objective function being to max(number) with whatever operator (appeal or understand) But you demonstrated that in a beautiful way with your misunderstanding! How wonderfully meta! QED
- agubelu 1y ago
  Would you say that analogies are like a sink where meaning and intentionality is lost?
  - HenryBemis 1y ago
    You brought in my mind the "Elon walking in with a sink" and saying "let that sink in".
- 7bit 1y ago
  Analogies are a great tool to illustrate problems, to make the issue more accessible. So I don't think the issue is with analogies, but analogies that are far more complex that the issue he wants to illustrate. In the specific context you're replying, however, I agree that any analogy would not add any useful information.
- npteljes 1y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree. I have both a hard time to grasp when others are using analogies, especially when they use phrases that are wrong in the public consciousness, like "fish rots from the head" - no, fish rots from the softer places first, or from wherever, the head is not particular. Pet peeve - soapbox is also used in an abstract way here, not better than the overuse of analogies. A whole century has since passed since people routinely stood on literal soapboxes. Furthermore, and I was (am?) guilty of this myself, people often use analogies and other kinds of abstract speech to hide the fact that they have no idea what is going on, or they don't know how to express something. And then the responsibility to decode meaning is passed on to the listener.
- phendrenad2 1y ago
  Okay you have two complaints about analogies: They're leaky abstractions (people get tripped up on the mismatch), and people don't understand the analogy domain (and miss the analogy entirely). The former is mostly a problem for a certain kind of concrete-thinking persons, and the former can be solved by picking a more universally understood analogy domain (like puppies). So analogies can be good, given the right audience and analogy domain.

nigel_bree 1y ago

> But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of top tier within New Zealand Really? I'm aware of some extremely top-tier and wildly underemployed talent - the problem is that the NZ market has almost no companies that need or are interested in good people with hard skills - it's almost all very basic web dev. Pretty much all the veterans I know around my age are doing work beneath them to pay the bills or have switched out of development completely.

teruakohatu 1y ago
> But paradoxically there is simultaneously a lack of top tier within New Zealand > Really? I'm aware of some extremely top-tier and wildly underemployed talent In my experience it is incredibly hard to hire top-tier talent, but both of our experiences could simultaneously be true. Are these people you know actively applying for better jobs and not getting them? I know of three excellent devs who are IMHO vastly unemployed. At least two of them would struggle to get through a corperate interview process. The other is happy with the chill job they have.
- nigel_bree 1y ago
  > Are these people you know actively applying for better jobs and not getting them? No, because the decades have worn them down. It's been a long time since there have ever been jobs in NZ advertised requiring hard development skills, and the tiny handful that do come up in public tend to be for very specialized verticals where they made hard demands on past experience in that niche area first and foremost over everything else. > The other is happy with the chill job they have I mean, I can't blame them for that - there are lots of toxic employers, ageism, credentialism, etc etc. If you're just going to be underemployed doing kiddie-level work anyway, better the devil you know, particularly if you have a family to take care of. It's all just a big old mess of market failure, though. The problem isn't that the talent pool isn't there, it's that since there's no VC money around, the firms that _really_ need that talent can't pay what the hungrier younger people (who want more than anything else to get on the FAANG gravy train) want and the fantastically talented folks mostly can't earn any kind of premium remotely matching their business value and so make lifestyle choices it's hard to pry them out of.