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> In yet others, they can occupy parts of national parks and have an armed standoff with federal agents, again with no real consequences. What situation are yo

by mulmen 1y ago

> In yet others, they can occupy parts of national parks and have an armed standoff with federal agents, again with no real consequences. What situation are you referencing here? First one that comes to mind is Malheur but one of them was killed and 7 went to prison.

anonymars 1y ago
I imagine they're thinking of the Bundy standoff (which was federal BLM land but not a national park) To wit: > The Bundy standoff’s most significant legacy may be the precedent it established: that armed resistance against federal authorities could succeed without serious legal consequences for participants. This outcome has had a profound impact on antigovernment extremist movements, creating what experts describe as “a straight line” connecting Bunkerville to the Capitol riot. https://lasvegassun.com/news/2025/apr/13/a-decade-of-defiance-the-standoff-at-bundy-ranch-a/ https://lasvegassun.com/news/2025/apr/13/a-decade-of-defianc...
- mulmen 1y ago
  Interesting. Malheur was led by the same Amon Bundy.
  - anonymars 1y ago
    Close! The 2014 standoff was led by Clive Bundy, Ammon's father
  - ty6853 1y ago
    Amon Bundy was tried on many charges and his case was closed with prejudice. The media and government tried and tried to paint him as a criminal but ultimately all the kings horses, men, and prosecutors weren't able to persuade a jury.
    - mulmen 1y ago
      > The media and government tried and tried to paint him as a criminal but ultimately all the kings horses, men, and prosecutors weren't able to persuade a jury. This is technically correct but is a misleading characterization of the events according to Wikipedia [1]. > The first criminal case resulting from the standoff, against six Bundy supporters, was declared a mistrial by U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro on April 24, 2017. > The mistrial was declared hours after the jury convicted two men of some of the 10 counts in the indictment. The case was declared a mistrial with prejudice due to prosecutorial "misjudgement" that prevented a fair trial of the Bundys. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#Prosecutions_of_some_standoff_participants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#Prosecutions_of...
      - ty6853 1y ago
        The Bunkerville trial of Ammon was declared a mistrial with prejudice. For Malheur he was found 'not guilty' on all charges 'according to wikipedia', >On October 27, 2016, Ammon Bundy was found not guilty on all counts.[87][88] Unless you are thinking of another trial of Amon, I think you are mixing up someone else (6 others?) or another event. I admit it is easy to mix it up with Ammon, because the government tried to pin felony charges on him so many time and always hopelessly failed just in multiple ways. Of course sometimes a criminal just gets away with it, but when the government tries so many felony charges and fails each time, that is when I decided to investigate 'the other side of the coin' and quickly found the portrait portrayed by the media of Ammon is in my estimation highly distorted. While it will do nothing to convince one way or another of his guilt, I highly recommend listening to some of his interviews and videos and actually trying to understand him, and I think you will be surprised. His ideas and speech were not at all what I expected based on the media portrayal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_Bundy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_Bundy
        zzrrt 1y ago
        Are we reading the same Wikipedia page? Maybe I’ll save a full perusal of his statements for another day, but based on Wikipedia… yes, he has said some surprisingly liberal things about Trump, immigration policy, the Republican party, and Black Lives Matter. On the other hand, he put some hospitals through lockdown, threats of violence, accusations of pedophilia conspiracy, and protesting outside of hospital workers’ homes, all because the hospital put his buddy’s infant grandson into protective care because it was about to die of malnourishment. That’s about what I expect based on his portrayal. I don’t know exactly how he’s escaped consequences, but I don’t think it’s because he’s actually reasonable and correct.
- rurp 1y ago
  The Obama administration's decision to do nothing in that case is one of several extremely risk averse decisions that seemed questionable at the time and turned out to be quite bad in hindsight. Shrugging off Russia's invasion of Ukraine being another. It shouldn't have been a surprise that letting armed militias break federal law with little to no consequence would encourage further bad behavior.
  - ty6853 1y ago
    Lol the Obama administration did not 'do nothing.' They offered a plea agreement to the Hammonds (cause d'etre of the whole thing), who were then sentenced for a wildland fire under dubious circumstances. After the sentencing it was a done deal, it was over. Then Obama's DOJ had to stoke the flames and reneg on it -- IIRC after the sentenced had already been served! It shouldn't have been a surprise what unfolded after the government reneging, in a way that was so egregious that they (the people that were the cause d'etre for the Malheur occupation) were pardoned with the following remarks during the pardon: "The evidence at trial regarding the Hammonds’ responsibility for the fire was conflicting, and the jury acquitted them on most (sic) of the charges." According to his spokesperson Sarah Sanders, who read the statement, "The previous administration, however, filed an overzealous appeal that resulted in the Hammonds being sentenced to five years in prison" So you can see the Malheur occupation was a response to a federal government who engaged in such tyrannical behavior as inducing a plea bargain that gave up right to appeal, then themselves hypocritically appealing the sentence and changing it after the fact to one that was found to violate the 8th amendment by Judge Michael Hogan. The Malheur occupation was a response to this, if Obama had 'done nothing' in the case of the Hammonds or just respected the judge's sentence none of it would have happened. In my estimation Bundy et al was the only thing that brought the Hammonds the visibility to get the justice of a pardon under these circumstances and a restoration of their 8th amendment rights.
  - mulmen 1y ago
    I always thought that hesitation was an over-correction after Ruby Ridge and Waco.
    - 1y ago
ty6853 1y ago
The one that was killed was only done so away from Malheur, when the men with badges suddenly became brave again when they had one man and his family out in a bumfuck rural road.
- mulmen 1y ago
  The men with badges didn't "suddenly become brave". This was a planned operation to capture the leaders of the Malheur standoff. I can find no evidence or even claim that the passengers in LaVoy Finicum's truck were his family. He was transporting Ryan Bundy along with Shawna Cox, Victoria Sharp, and Ryan Payne. Ammon Bundy was in a trailing Jeep. Ammon surrendered in the initial stop but Finicum fled. After crashing his truck avoiding a roadblock during the high speed pursuit Finicum got out and attempted to draw on officers. He was literally yelling "shoot me" as they shot him. There's video from the air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWX3Tz1tQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWX3Tz1tQI And inside his truck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4 Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge#January_26_arrests_and_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...
  - ty6853 1y ago
    It appears you are correct about the other members of the truck (though I'm unsure to what extent they were leaders). I had seen the video before but thought them in his family as he raised lots of foster children who may look quite unlike him. The rest still stands, and the following interesting facts >An Oregon State Police SWAT member, identified in the trial of FBI agent Astarita as "Officer 1", fired three shots with an AR-15, into Finicum's truck as it approached the roadblock.[144] >While Finicum was leaving his truck, an FBI Hostage Rescue Team member allegedly fired two shots[146] one of which entered the truck and ricocheted, inflicting the minor shrapnel wound on Ryan Bundy.[32] ... and then apparently after all this, then he 'attempted' (lol) to draw after police shot at him multiple times (which would be wholly inappropriate after someone tried to kill him with an ar-15), except I can't find evidence he actually did draw. In the aftermath, the police had to lie about the event: > They later determined that an FBI Hostage Rescue Team member fired twice at Finicum, missed him but injured a second militant in the process. The agent, whose identity was withheld, was under investigation, along with four other FBI agents who were suspected of attempting to conceal evidence of the gunshots. They reportedly told investigators that none of them fired a shot during the incident.[40][41] So they initiated fire, seemingly had a guilty enough conscious about initiating fire that they lied about it, isolated one old man who didn't draw and executed him. Clap, clap, brave men! > He was literally yelling "shoot me" as they shot him. ... he was yelling shoot me, I am going to see the sheriff -- after actually being shot at. I realize your theory is that anyone who puts their hand near their pocket who is pocket carrying on a cold day is 'attempting' to draw, of course no matter if you actually tried that defense as anyone but the enforcer class you would lose horribly and have years in jail to think about it. You have a murderous interpretation of self defense here.

by mulmen 1y ago

anonymars 1y ago

I imagine they're thinking of the Bundy standoff (which was federal BLM land but not a national park) To wit: > The Bundy standoff’s most significant legacy may be the precedent it established: that armed resistance against federal authorities could succeed without serious legal consequences for participants. This outcome has had a profound impact on antigovernment extremist movements, creating what experts describe as “a straight line” connecting Bunkerville to the Capitol riot. https://lasvegassun.com/news/2025/apr/13/a-decade-of-defiance-the-standoff-at-bundy-ranch-a/ https://lasvegassun.com/news/2025/apr/13/a-decade-of-defianc...

mulmen 1y ago
Interesting. Malheur was led by the same Amon Bundy.
- anonymars 1y ago
  Close! The 2014 standoff was led by Clive Bundy, Ammon's father
- ty6853 1y ago
  Amon Bundy was tried on many charges and his case was closed with prejudice. The media and government tried and tried to paint him as a criminal but ultimately all the kings horses, men, and prosecutors weren't able to persuade a jury.
  - mulmen 1y ago
    > The media and government tried and tried to paint him as a criminal but ultimately all the kings horses, men, and prosecutors weren't able to persuade a jury. This is technically correct but is a misleading characterization of the events according to Wikipedia [1]. > The first criminal case resulting from the standoff, against six Bundy supporters, was declared a mistrial by U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro on April 24, 2017. > The mistrial was declared hours after the jury convicted two men of some of the 10 counts in the indictment. The case was declared a mistrial with prejudice due to prosecutorial "misjudgement" that prevented a fair trial of the Bundys. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#Prosecutions_of_some_standoff_participants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff#Prosecutions_of...
    - ty6853 1y ago
      The Bunkerville trial of Ammon was declared a mistrial with prejudice. For Malheur he was found 'not guilty' on all charges 'according to wikipedia', >On October 27, 2016, Ammon Bundy was found not guilty on all counts.[87][88] Unless you are thinking of another trial of Amon, I think you are mixing up someone else (6 others?) or another event. I admit it is easy to mix it up with Ammon, because the government tried to pin felony charges on him so many time and always hopelessly failed just in multiple ways. Of course sometimes a criminal just gets away with it, but when the government tries so many felony charges and fails each time, that is when I decided to investigate 'the other side of the coin' and quickly found the portrait portrayed by the media of Ammon is in my estimation highly distorted. While it will do nothing to convince one way or another of his guilt, I highly recommend listening to some of his interviews and videos and actually trying to understand him, and I think you will be surprised. His ideas and speech were not at all what I expected based on the media portrayal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_Bundy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon_Bundy
      - zzrrt 1y ago
        Are we reading the same Wikipedia page? Maybe I’ll save a full perusal of his statements for another day, but based on Wikipedia… yes, he has said some surprisingly liberal things about Trump, immigration policy, the Republican party, and Black Lives Matter. On the other hand, he put some hospitals through lockdown, threats of violence, accusations of pedophilia conspiracy, and protesting outside of hospital workers’ homes, all because the hospital put his buddy’s infant grandson into protective care because it was about to die of malnourishment. That’s about what I expect based on his portrayal. I don’t know exactly how he’s escaped consequences, but I don’t think it’s because he’s actually reasonable and correct.
rurp 1y ago
The Obama administration's decision to do nothing in that case is one of several extremely risk averse decisions that seemed questionable at the time and turned out to be quite bad in hindsight. Shrugging off Russia's invasion of Ukraine being another. It shouldn't have been a surprise that letting armed militias break federal law with little to no consequence would encourage further bad behavior.
- ty6853 1y ago
  Lol the Obama administration did not 'do nothing.' They offered a plea agreement to the Hammonds (cause d'etre of the whole thing), who were then sentenced for a wildland fire under dubious circumstances. After the sentencing it was a done deal, it was over. Then Obama's DOJ had to stoke the flames and reneg on it -- IIRC after the sentenced had already been served! It shouldn't have been a surprise what unfolded after the government reneging, in a way that was so egregious that they (the people that were the cause d'etre for the Malheur occupation) were pardoned with the following remarks during the pardon: "The evidence at trial regarding the Hammonds’ responsibility for the fire was conflicting, and the jury acquitted them on most (sic) of the charges." According to his spokesperson Sarah Sanders, who read the statement, "The previous administration, however, filed an overzealous appeal that resulted in the Hammonds being sentenced to five years in prison" So you can see the Malheur occupation was a response to a federal government who engaged in such tyrannical behavior as inducing a plea bargain that gave up right to appeal, then themselves hypocritically appealing the sentence and changing it after the fact to one that was found to violate the 8th amendment by Judge Michael Hogan. The Malheur occupation was a response to this, if Obama had 'done nothing' in the case of the Hammonds or just respected the judge's sentence none of it would have happened. In my estimation Bundy et al was the only thing that brought the Hammonds the visibility to get the justice of a pardon under these circumstances and a restoration of their 8th amendment rights.
- mulmen 1y ago
  I always thought that hesitation was an over-correction after Ruby Ridge and Waco.
  - 1y ago

ty6853 1y ago

The one that was killed was only done so away from Malheur, when the men with badges suddenly became brave again when they had one man and his family out in a bumfuck rural road.

mulmen 1y ago
The men with badges didn't "suddenly become brave". This was a planned operation to capture the leaders of the Malheur standoff. I can find no evidence or even claim that the passengers in LaVoy Finicum's truck were his family. He was transporting Ryan Bundy along with Shawna Cox, Victoria Sharp, and Ryan Payne. Ammon Bundy was in a trailing Jeep. Ammon surrendered in the initial stop but Finicum fled. After crashing his truck avoiding a roadblock during the high speed pursuit Finicum got out and attempted to draw on officers. He was literally yelling "shoot me" as they shot him. There's video from the air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWX3Tz1tQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWX3Tz1tQI And inside his truck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4 Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge#January_26_arrests_and_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...
- ty6853 1y ago
  It appears you are correct about the other members of the truck (though I'm unsure to what extent they were leaders). I had seen the video before but thought them in his family as he raised lots of foster children who may look quite unlike him. The rest still stands, and the following interesting facts >An Oregon State Police SWAT member, identified in the trial of FBI agent Astarita as "Officer 1", fired three shots with an AR-15, into Finicum's truck as it approached the roadblock.[144] >While Finicum was leaving his truck, an FBI Hostage Rescue Team member allegedly fired two shots[146] one of which entered the truck and ricocheted, inflicting the minor shrapnel wound on Ryan Bundy.[32] ... and then apparently after all this, then he 'attempted' (lol) to draw after police shot at him multiple times (which would be wholly inappropriate after someone tried to kill him with an ar-15), except I can't find evidence he actually did draw. In the aftermath, the police had to lie about the event: > They later determined that an FBI Hostage Rescue Team member fired twice at Finicum, missed him but injured a second militant in the process. The agent, whose identity was withheld, was under investigation, along with four other FBI agents who were suspected of attempting to conceal evidence of the gunshots. They reportedly told investigators that none of them fired a shot during the incident.[40][41] So they initiated fire, seemingly had a guilty enough conscious about initiating fire that they lied about it, isolated one old man who didn't draw and executed him. Clap, clap, brave men! > He was literally yelling "shoot me" as they shot him. ... he was yelling shoot me, I am going to see the sheriff -- after actually being shot at. I realize your theory is that anyone who puts their hand near their pocket who is pocket carrying on a cold day is 'attempting' to draw, of course no matter if you actually tried that defense as anyone but the enforcer class you would lose horribly and have years in jail to think about it. You have a murderous interpretation of self defense here.