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> then punishing people for wrong doing doesn't make sense I think all that's needed for punishment to make sense is for that punishment to have a deterrence e

by Ukv 1y ago

> then punishing people for wrong doing doesn't make sense I think all that's needed for punishment to make sense is for that punishment to have a deterrence effect, reducing frequency of the targeted behavior. I'm not seeing why whether or not punishment makes sense would hinge on whether our universe turns out to be deterministic or to be non-deterministic.

amichail 1y ago
A deterministic universe would make free will impossible. While a punishment in a deterministic universe can have a deterrence effect, it might not be the morally right thing to do.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  There is no deterrence effect in a deterministic universe without free will. Deterrence requires the individual to make a choice, which per your question they cannot make. And if you remove moral responsibility from criminals (to the extent that makes sense as a term in a free-will-free deterministic universe), then those punishing criminals are also free of moral responsibility. They did not make a choice, it was made for them and they are merely moving per the rules of the deterministic universe.
  - amichail 1y ago
    You can certainly make a robot without free will that tries to avoid being punished. In terms of humans without free will, evolution could make them try to avoid punishment as a survival instinct.
- Ukv 1y ago
  > While a punishment in a deterministic universe can have a deterrence effect, it might not be the morally right thing to do. I feel whether it's the morally right thing to do depends on your ethical framework, not really whether the universe is deterministic. For instance in terms of maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering, you'd want to punish when you estimate the suffering relieved by enacting the punishment (deterred crime, long-term precedents encouraging benevolence, etc.) outweighs the suffering caused by the punishment itself.
- deleted 1y ago
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by Ukv 1y ago

amichail 1y ago

A deterministic universe would make free will impossible. While a punishment in a deterministic universe can have a deterrence effect, it might not be the morally right thing to do.

Jtsummers 1y ago
There is no deterrence effect in a deterministic universe without free will. Deterrence requires the individual to make a choice, which per your question they cannot make. And if you remove moral responsibility from criminals (to the extent that makes sense as a term in a free-will-free deterministic universe), then those punishing criminals are also free of moral responsibility. They did not make a choice, it was made for them and they are merely moving per the rules of the deterministic universe.
- amichail 1y ago
  You can certainly make a robot without free will that tries to avoid being punished. In terms of humans without free will, evolution could make them try to avoid punishment as a survival instinct.
Ukv 1y ago
> While a punishment in a deterministic universe can have a deterrence effect, it might not be the morally right thing to do. I feel whether it's the morally right thing to do depends on your ethical framework, not really whether the universe is deterministic. For instance in terms of maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering, you'd want to punish when you estimate the suffering relieved by enacting the punishment (deterred crime, long-term precedents encouraging benevolence, etc.) outweighs the suffering caused by the punishment itself.
deleted 1y ago
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