4 ms·

That’s one perspective, but it’s wrong and typical gatekeeping (do you have a software degree by any chance?). People had the same attitude towards open source

That’s one perspective, but it’s wrong and typical gatekeeping (do you have a software degree by any chance?). People had the same attitude towards open source tooling and low code frameworks - god forbid someone not certified and ordained build a solution in something other than Java... AI code tools are allowing people to build things they couldn't before due to lack of skillset, time or budget. I’ve seen all sorts of problems solved by semi technical and even non-technical people. My brother for example built a thing with Microsoft copilot that helped automate more in his manufacturing facility (used to be paper). But yeah, keep yelling at that cloud - the rest of us will keep shipping cool things that we couldn’t before, and faster.

Workaccount2 1y ago
>My brother for example built a thing with Microsoft copilot that helped automate more in his manufacturing facility (used to be paper). I have harped on this endlessly as a non-programmer working a non-tech job, with 7 "vibe-coded" programs now being used daily by people at my company. I am sorry, but the tech world is completely missing the forest for the trees here. LLM's are talked about purely as tools that were created to help devs. Some love them, some hate them, but pretty much all of them seem unaware that LLMs allow non-tech people to automate tasks with a computer without having to go through a 3rd-party-created interface. So yea, maybe Claude is useless troubleshooting your cloud platform. But it certainly isn't useless in helping me forgo a cloud platform by setting up a simple local database to use instead.
- cpursley 1y ago
  Yep, and it allows them to build POCs that they can pass to "real" devs in a way that was not possible before.
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    Real devs excel at writing software for hundreds, thousands, millions of users with fractal use cases and feature needs. LLMs excel at writing software for one or a handful of users with a very narrow but very well defined use cases. I don't need an LLM to write Excel.exe for keeping track of 20 employee's hours. A simple GUI on a SQLite database can easily do that.
    - kentonv 1y ago
      Yes! We're about to enter a world where everyone has their own custom software for their specific use cases. Each of these is relatively simple, yet they may replace something complex. Excel is complex because it needs to handle everyone's use cases, but for any one particular spreadsheet, you could pretty easily vibe-code a replacement that does that one spreadsheet's job better than Excel can. I've also found that vibe-coding a presentation as a React app is better than using Power Point.
- felipeerias 1y ago
  Devs have a hard time seeing vibe coding as UI, but that is what it effectively is for the average user. Describe the problem, get an interactive tool to handle it.
- lsllc 1y ago
  > >My brother for example built a thing with Microsoft copilot that helped automate more in his manufacturing facility (used to be paper). > I have harped on this endlessly as a non-programmer working a non-tech job, with 7 "vibe-coded" programs now being used daily by people at my company. Aren't AI coding agent(s) just the next iteration of democratizing app development? This has happened before with Microsoft Access (even Visual Basic), or going back further FoxPro, dBase & Clipper etc? With all of these tools, non-programmers had been able to create apps to help them with their businesses.
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    This has never happened before. There has never been a plain English programming language. Public Class Form1 Private Sub Form1_Load(sender As Object, e As EventArgs) Handles MyBase.Load MessageBox.Show("Hello, World!") End Sub End Class Becomes "Make a message box pop up on the screen that says Hello World!"
  - cpursley 1y ago
    From what I understand, what he built was a copilot assisted Access app. He would have not had the time nor skillset without the copilot thing. And they don't have the budget for a bespoke app.
sitharus 1y ago
The problem isn't that people can quickly prototype an idea that they've had without contracting an expensive professional, I think this is great. This will give ideas that would never see the light of day a chance. Plus this gives a much better talking point if they do choose to get a professional onboard. The problem is that it's sold as a complete solution. Use the LLM and you'll get a fully working product. However if you're not an experienced programmer you won't know what's missing, if it's using outdated and insecure options, or is just badly written. This still needs a professional. The technology is great and it has real potential to change how things are made, but it's being marketed as something it isn't (yet).
- kentonv 1y ago
  > However if you're not an experienced programmer you won't know what's missing, if it's using outdated and insecure options, or is just badly written. This still needs a professional. I think a lot of this could be solved by a platform that implements appropriate guardrails so that the application code literally cannot screw up the security. Not every conceivable type of software would fit in such a platform, but a lot of what people want to do to automate their day-to-day lives could.
- immibis 1y ago
  You know the industry that will need a lot more professionals after this - cybersecurity.

Workaccount2 1y ago

>My brother for example built a thing with Microsoft copilot that helped automate more in his manufacturing facility (used to be paper). I have harped on this endlessly as a non-programmer working a non-tech job, with 7 "vibe-coded" programs now being used daily by people at my company. I am sorry, but the tech world is completely missing the forest for the trees here. LLM's are talked about purely as tools that were created to help devs. Some love them, some hate them, but pretty much all of them seem unaware that LLMs allow non-tech people to automate tasks with a computer without having to go through a 3rd-party-created interface. So yea, maybe Claude is useless troubleshooting your cloud platform. But it certainly isn't useless in helping me forgo a cloud platform by setting up a simple local database to use instead.

cpursley 1y ago
Yep, and it allows them to build POCs that they can pass to "real" devs in a way that was not possible before.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  Real devs excel at writing software for hundreds, thousands, millions of users with fractal use cases and feature needs. LLMs excel at writing software for one or a handful of users with a very narrow but very well defined use cases. I don't need an LLM to write Excel.exe for keeping track of 20 employee's hours. A simple GUI on a SQLite database can easily do that.
  - kentonv 1y ago
    Yes! We're about to enter a world where everyone has their own custom software for their specific use cases. Each of these is relatively simple, yet they may replace something complex. Excel is complex because it needs to handle everyone's use cases, but for any one particular spreadsheet, you could pretty easily vibe-code a replacement that does that one spreadsheet's job better than Excel can. I've also found that vibe-coding a presentation as a React app is better than using Power Point.
felipeerias 1y ago
Devs have a hard time seeing vibe coding as UI, but that is what it effectively is for the average user. Describe the problem, get an interactive tool to handle it.
lsllc 1y ago
> >My brother for example built a thing with Microsoft copilot that helped automate more in his manufacturing facility (used to be paper). > I have harped on this endlessly as a non-programmer working a non-tech job, with 7 "vibe-coded" programs now being used daily by people at my company. Aren't AI coding agent(s) just the next iteration of democratizing app development? This has happened before with Microsoft Access (even Visual Basic), or going back further FoxPro, dBase & Clipper etc? With all of these tools, non-programmers had been able to create apps to help them with their businesses.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  This has never happened before. There has never been a plain English programming language. Public Class Form1 Private Sub Form1_Load(sender As Object, e As EventArgs) Handles MyBase.Load MessageBox.Show("Hello, World!") End Sub End Class Becomes "Make a message box pop up on the screen that says Hello World!"
- cpursley 1y ago
  From what I understand, what he built was a copilot assisted Access app. He would have not had the time nor skillset without the copilot thing. And they don't have the budget for a bespoke app.

sitharus 1y ago

The problem isn't that people can quickly prototype an idea that they've had without contracting an expensive professional, I think this is great. This will give ideas that would never see the light of day a chance. Plus this gives a much better talking point if they do choose to get a professional onboard. The problem is that it's sold as a complete solution. Use the LLM and you'll get a fully working product. However if you're not an experienced programmer you won't know what's missing, if it's using outdated and insecure options, or is just badly written. This still needs a professional. The technology is great and it has real potential to change how things are made, but it's being marketed as something it isn't (yet).

kentonv 1y ago
> However if you're not an experienced programmer you won't know what's missing, if it's using outdated and insecure options, or is just badly written. This still needs a professional. I think a lot of this could be solved by a platform that implements appropriate guardrails so that the application code literally cannot screw up the security. Not every conceivable type of software would fit in such a platform, but a lot of what people want to do to automate their day-to-day lives could.
immibis 1y ago
You know the industry that will need a lot more professionals after this - cybersecurity.