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How much territory would you be willing to cede to Russia if Putin threatened to nuke you if you didn't? Should everybody just roll over in the face of Russian

by mcv 1y ago

How much territory would you be willing to cede to Russia if Putin threatened to nuke you if you didn't? Should everybody just roll over in the face of Russian threats? Offensive use of nukes, even implicitly threatening offensive use of nukes, is a step too far for everybody.

mmooss 1y ago
None, but that is a false choice. Why are you offering false choices instead of finding solutions that don't escalate nuclear warfare? The bandwagon to war, which is what you've joined, is the biggest mistake you can make. Almost no dynamic - maybe besides ethnic nationalism - kills more people and destroys more societies and nations.
- mcv 1y ago
  > None, but that is a false choice. It is not. This is what you're asking from Ukraine. Unlike you, I want this war to end in a way that it doesn't pop up again in a few years. Russia has a long history of wars of aggression. In the past two decades, they took land from Georgia in 2008 and got away with it. Took Crimea and the Donbas in 2014 and got away with it. Do you really think Putin will stop if this invasion will also turn out to be successful? Demanding Ukraine to surrender will only strengthen Putin and his belief that he can continue waging war. Rewarding him with more land will no more deter him from further aggression than it did with Hitler in 1938 and 1939. This is the best opportunity to stop him and prevent WW3. Every expert recognizes this. It's only Putin's propaganda that tries to convince us that surrendering to him will somehow being peace. But if you listen to what Russian media and politicians are saying, you'll hear that they're already talking about Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia and even Poland. Putin has spoken about his desire for a Eurasian empire from Vladivostok to Lisbon. That might sound ridiculous, but he could get it if people keep surrendering land to him. The only way to stop him is to stop him.
  - mmooss 1y ago
    You don't need to make up things about me, just stick to the issues. > This is what you're asking from Ukraine. No, life isn't as simple as you want it to be. You need to make decisions that accomplish and balance many complex problems. 'It's the other person's fault' may simplify things in your mind, but your failure to make a good decision will have the same outcome regardless.
    - mcv 1y ago
      That's very vague and general, and avoids specifics. I'm not the one making the decisions here, but Ukrainian leadership seems to know a lot better what they're doing than you or I. They are balancing complex problems and have been doing so quite successfully. And the fact that Ukraine is so unwilling to condemn their future generations to Putin's oppression is a massive stroke of luck for other European countries who might otherwise be next in Putin's plans. Keeping the war confined to Ukraine and ensuring a Ukrainian win there, is by far the best option for European security. Strengthening Putin is the worst option, and giving him a victory here will do exactly that.

by mcv 1y ago

mmooss 1y ago

None, but that is a false choice. Why are you offering false choices instead of finding solutions that don't escalate nuclear warfare? The bandwagon to war, which is what you've joined, is the biggest mistake you can make. Almost no dynamic - maybe besides ethnic nationalism - kills more people and destroys more societies and nations.

mcv 1y ago
> None, but that is a false choice. It is not. This is what you're asking from Ukraine. Unlike you, I want this war to end in a way that it doesn't pop up again in a few years. Russia has a long history of wars of aggression. In the past two decades, they took land from Georgia in 2008 and got away with it. Took Crimea and the Donbas in 2014 and got away with it. Do you really think Putin will stop if this invasion will also turn out to be successful? Demanding Ukraine to surrender will only strengthen Putin and his belief that he can continue waging war. Rewarding him with more land will no more deter him from further aggression than it did with Hitler in 1938 and 1939. This is the best opportunity to stop him and prevent WW3. Every expert recognizes this. It's only Putin's propaganda that tries to convince us that surrendering to him will somehow being peace. But if you listen to what Russian media and politicians are saying, you'll hear that they're already talking about Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia and even Poland. Putin has spoken about his desire for a Eurasian empire from Vladivostok to Lisbon. That might sound ridiculous, but he could get it if people keep surrendering land to him. The only way to stop him is to stop him.
- mmooss 1y ago
  You don't need to make up things about me, just stick to the issues. > This is what you're asking from Ukraine. No, life isn't as simple as you want it to be. You need to make decisions that accomplish and balance many complex problems. 'It's the other person's fault' may simplify things in your mind, but your failure to make a good decision will have the same outcome regardless.
  - mcv 1y ago
    That's very vague and general, and avoids specifics. I'm not the one making the decisions here, but Ukrainian leadership seems to know a lot better what they're doing than you or I. They are balancing complex problems and have been doing so quite successfully. And the fact that Ukraine is so unwilling to condemn their future generations to Putin's oppression is a massive stroke of luck for other European countries who might otherwise be next in Putin's plans. Keeping the war confined to Ukraine and ensuring a Ukrainian win there, is by far the best option for European security. Strengthening Putin is the worst option, and giving him a victory here will do exactly that.