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Feels like Trello alternatives are the next ToDo list. There's so many of them these days that I struggle to grasp why anyone thinks launching an opensource one

by esskay 1y ago

Feels like Trello alternatives are the next ToDo list. There's so many of them these days that I struggle to grasp why anyone thinks launching an opensource one and thinking they can turn a profit with a cloud version is ever going to work. In all likelihood the project will be abandoned in 6 months and the site offline in 12.

dabeeeenster 1y ago
The market for an on-premise, developer maintained solution is way bigger for a product like this than the cloud version. We made the exact same, incorrect assumption with https://github.com/Flagsmith/flagsmith https://github.com/Flagsmith/flagsmith several years ago. The market for data sensitive on-premise delpoyments is a LOT bigger than most people would imagine. For Flagsmith, the majority of our revenue comes from on-premise deployments.
- ensemblehq 1y ago
  Wholeheartedly agree. On-prem is still a major market to play in and have worked on many consulting engagements architecting software that plays nicely. Just curious - how do you guys deploy Flagsmith on-prem? I'm still trying to find a nice deployment pattern that aligns well with both client and vendor.
  - dabeeeenster 1y ago
    99% of the time Kubernetes. Just hand over enterprise docker images and helm charts. If that's what you were asking?
    - xet7 1y ago
      WeKan https://wekan.github.io https://wekan.github.io has Helm Chart here: https://artifacthub.io/packages/helm/wekan/wekan https://artifacthub.io/packages/helm/wekan/wekan
  - PunchyHamster 1y ago
    From one deploying stuff on prem: Absolute best scenario is single binary with embedded static files (Go is very good at that) that just takes config and/or CLI options (preferably both if it isn't too complex of a config) and works. Or static file that just needs to be pointed at database with certain version It can be easily run on VM, it can be easily made with container, it can be easily made into package, or ran in cloud with cloud DB service. All those options are a plus, but the fact it is a single binary makes it easier to make a package or container out of it and deliver that to customers. Second best is .deb package that deploys a single service or a container that just exposes a port and that's it. DB-wise there is a temptation to provide a bunch of containers that have all of app's dependencies (DB etc.) but that's a LOT of work on both side. On supplier side you have ton of stuff you need to take care of, providing method to do consistent backups, caring about log rotation, handling service restarts if something fails etc. and lastly procedures to recover it from the backup And on client side they can't just do same database backup they do for every single other database they know, they have to take app's custom way of backing up and integrate it, or just "copy whole container and hope for best". It can be worth it, if your setup is complex enough that asking client to install those dependencies would be a big obstacle (and especially if you need to use different versions than available under Debian/Ubuntu stable), but if you are just deploying container with app and plain PostgreSQL db without using anything special that would need latest version, just let user ship their own DB. Also supporting "small" deployment with just SQLite backend is great for demoing stuff to management
    - airstrike 1y ago
      Thank you for this
    - rollcat 1y ago
      How do you feel about SQLite, especially re: backup/restore? Do you just copy the live DB+WAL around, do you bring the service down first, perhaps ZFS snapshots, any horror stories?
      - xet7 1y ago
        SQLite streaming backups: https://litestream.io https://litestream.io
- libraryatnight 1y ago
  "The market for an on-premise, developer maintained solution..." This made me laugh because at work we've been joking, "We've finished moving to the cloud! What now? We must get out of the cloud!"
bryanhogan 1y ago
The amount of high quality Kanban / Trello-like options is low while the need for these is very high. At the same time getting started in building such a tool doesn't require a lot of resources. I think it's a good thing and I hope to see one that can replace my Notion Kanban soon.
- kingkongjaffa 1y ago
  What makes it high quality in your experience? (I’m doing customer research for my own kanban startup) /s
  - bryanhogan 1y ago
    Well, what makes such a product high quality is highly subjective :D But for me personally I'd love a Kanban product that can rival Notion's feature set and simplicity, can be used offline / is local-first, offers some custimzation options, does not force me into a subscription, works well on desktop (Windows) as well as on my phone (Android).
    - xet7 1y ago
      It's possible to self-host WeKan kanban https://wekan.github.io https://wekan.github.io and use it like PWA https://github.com/wekan/wekan/wiki/PWA https://github.com/wekan/wekan/wiki/PWA at Windows, Android, iOS etc, more info at https://wekan.team/app/ https://wekan.team/app/ , where is my app without Admin access at my server, but with with that PWA wiki page similar is possible. But WeKan does not rival Notion feature set. For that, maybe AFFiNE https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44165373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44165373
- xet7 1y ago
  For replacing Notion Kanban, maybe AFFiNE, that is mostly MIT license: https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE But some part of server code license may need checking: https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE/blob/canary/packages/backend/server/LICENSE https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE/blob/canary/packages/...
mrbluecoat 1y ago
Agreed. The AGPL license was the nail in the coffin for me.
- ta1243 1y ago
  Why? Did you want to use it, extend it, and sell proprietary addons yourself? I haven't looked much at AGPL, how does it hurt the user?
hliyan 1y ago
I think what the industry is missing is some sort of interoperability standard/format for task management. I say this as someone who has been jumping from task tracker to task tracker since the early 2000's -- Trac, Jira, Redmine, Github Tasks, Trello, ClickUp, Linear, and several tools I developed myself. In each case, we rediscover/reinvent/redefine the same things: tasks, subtasks, summaries, descriptions, due dates, statuses, comments, milestones, dependencies etc. If there was some interoperability standard for task trackers, the tool churn wouldn't feel so tedious.
- rapnie 1y ago
  Not exactly what you are after, but related. There is ForgeFed [0] as a standard for code forge federation. It is an extension of ActivityPub [1] social web protocol, and thus far includes all the basic elements to facilitate task management / kanban. The project is wholly volunteer-driven, and recently received NLnet support to mature the standard further. Recently the maintainers were asking for feedback to help improve the specs. Various forges such as Gitlab [2] and Forgejo [3] are adding support for ActivityPub and considering ForgeFed support too. [0] https://forgefed.org/spec/ https://forgefed.org/spec/ [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ [2] https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/11247 https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/11247 [3] https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/federation https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/federation
- xet7 1y ago
  Moving issues between some of those is possible: https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug Gitea has some one-time imports, but maybe not yet full mirroring of everything, I have not checked latest status. https://about.gitea.com https://about.gitea.com
deleted 1y ago
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by esskay 1y ago

dabeeeenster 1y ago

The market for an on-premise, developer maintained solution is way bigger for a product like this than the cloud version. We made the exact same, incorrect assumption with https://github.com/Flagsmith/flagsmith https://github.com/Flagsmith/flagsmith several years ago. The market for data sensitive on-premise delpoyments is a LOT bigger than most people would imagine. For Flagsmith, the majority of our revenue comes from on-premise deployments.

ensemblehq 1y ago
Wholeheartedly agree. On-prem is still a major market to play in and have worked on many consulting engagements architecting software that plays nicely. Just curious - how do you guys deploy Flagsmith on-prem? I'm still trying to find a nice deployment pattern that aligns well with both client and vendor.
- dabeeeenster 1y ago
  99% of the time Kubernetes. Just hand over enterprise docker images and helm charts. If that's what you were asking?
  - xet7 1y ago
    WeKan https://wekan.github.io https://wekan.github.io has Helm Chart here: https://artifacthub.io/packages/helm/wekan/wekan https://artifacthub.io/packages/helm/wekan/wekan
- PunchyHamster 1y ago
  From one deploying stuff on prem: Absolute best scenario is single binary with embedded static files (Go is very good at that) that just takes config and/or CLI options (preferably both if it isn't too complex of a config) and works. Or static file that just needs to be pointed at database with certain version It can be easily run on VM, it can be easily made with container, it can be easily made into package, or ran in cloud with cloud DB service. All those options are a plus, but the fact it is a single binary makes it easier to make a package or container out of it and deliver that to customers. Second best is .deb package that deploys a single service or a container that just exposes a port and that's it. DB-wise there is a temptation to provide a bunch of containers that have all of app's dependencies (DB etc.) but that's a LOT of work on both side. On supplier side you have ton of stuff you need to take care of, providing method to do consistent backups, caring about log rotation, handling service restarts if something fails etc. and lastly procedures to recover it from the backup And on client side they can't just do same database backup they do for every single other database they know, they have to take app's custom way of backing up and integrate it, or just "copy whole container and hope for best". It can be worth it, if your setup is complex enough that asking client to install those dependencies would be a big obstacle (and especially if you need to use different versions than available under Debian/Ubuntu stable), but if you are just deploying container with app and plain PostgreSQL db without using anything special that would need latest version, just let user ship their own DB. Also supporting "small" deployment with just SQLite backend is great for demoing stuff to management
  - airstrike 1y ago
    Thank you for this
  - rollcat 1y ago
    How do you feel about SQLite, especially re: backup/restore? Do you just copy the live DB+WAL around, do you bring the service down first, perhaps ZFS snapshots, any horror stories?
    - xet7 1y ago
      SQLite streaming backups: https://litestream.io https://litestream.io
libraryatnight 1y ago
"The market for an on-premise, developer maintained solution..." This made me laugh because at work we've been joking, "We've finished moving to the cloud! What now? We must get out of the cloud!"

bryanhogan 1y ago

The amount of high quality Kanban / Trello-like options is low while the need for these is very high. At the same time getting started in building such a tool doesn't require a lot of resources. I think it's a good thing and I hope to see one that can replace my Notion Kanban soon.

kingkongjaffa 1y ago
What makes it high quality in your experience? (I’m doing customer research for my own kanban startup) /s
- bryanhogan 1y ago
  Well, what makes such a product high quality is highly subjective :D But for me personally I'd love a Kanban product that can rival Notion's feature set and simplicity, can be used offline / is local-first, offers some custimzation options, does not force me into a subscription, works well on desktop (Windows) as well as on my phone (Android).
  - xet7 1y ago
    It's possible to self-host WeKan kanban https://wekan.github.io https://wekan.github.io and use it like PWA https://github.com/wekan/wekan/wiki/PWA https://github.com/wekan/wekan/wiki/PWA at Windows, Android, iOS etc, more info at https://wekan.team/app/ https://wekan.team/app/ , where is my app without Admin access at my server, but with with that PWA wiki page similar is possible. But WeKan does not rival Notion feature set. For that, maybe AFFiNE https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44165373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44165373
xet7 1y ago
For replacing Notion Kanban, maybe AFFiNE, that is mostly MIT license: https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE But some part of server code license may need checking: https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE/blob/canary/packages/backend/server/LICENSE https://github.com/toeverything/AFFiNE/blob/canary/packages/...

mrbluecoat 1y ago

Agreed. The AGPL license was the nail in the coffin for me.

ta1243 1y ago
Why? Did you want to use it, extend it, and sell proprietary addons yourself? I haven't looked much at AGPL, how does it hurt the user?

hliyan 1y ago

I think what the industry is missing is some sort of interoperability standard/format for task management. I say this as someone who has been jumping from task tracker to task tracker since the early 2000's -- Trac, Jira, Redmine, Github Tasks, Trello, ClickUp, Linear, and several tools I developed myself. In each case, we rediscover/reinvent/redefine the same things: tasks, subtasks, summaries, descriptions, due dates, statuses, comments, milestones, dependencies etc. If there was some interoperability standard for task trackers, the tool churn wouldn't feel so tedious.

rapnie 1y ago
Not exactly what you are after, but related. There is ForgeFed [0] as a standard for code forge federation. It is an extension of ActivityPub [1] social web protocol, and thus far includes all the basic elements to facilitate task management / kanban. The project is wholly volunteer-driven, and recently received NLnet support to mature the standard further. Recently the maintainers were asking for feedback to help improve the specs. Various forges such as Gitlab [2] and Forgejo [3] are adding support for ActivityPub and considering ForgeFed support too. [0] https://forgefed.org/spec/ https://forgefed.org/spec/ [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ [2] https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/11247 https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/epics/11247 [3] https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/federation https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/federation
xet7 1y ago
Moving issues between some of those is possible: https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug Gitea has some one-time imports, but maybe not yet full mirroring of everything, I have not checked latest status. https://about.gitea.com https://about.gitea.com

deleted 1y ago

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