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With respect, having lived across both continents, Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own

With respect, having lived across both continents, Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens). The United States is a cruel, dystopian nightmare of a market masquerading as a country. No amount of corporate success will save it from it's inevitable collapse as the working class awaken to their situation.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
> Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens) If only Europeans could pay their mortgages and bills with morals instead of money. If only Russia could be defeated by morals and not weapons. If only the pensions and welfare Europeans enjoy could be funded my morals and not by economic growth. As usual, people who keep scoffing at economic growth saying "money doesn't matter" are those living in a bubble where they already have more than enough money and never experienced massive economic decline and take the economic prosperity they had for granted. Ask Greece or Eastern European countries how they feel about winning economically.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Eastern European countries are surprisingly nice actually. Those are safe, free, have access to good food and anyone who is living in those is living because they choose to. The only ones that complain are those who want to have the cake and eat it too. In general, the life in those countries is quite relaxed just as the working conditions. You may see thing like working hours are long but those working hours are not comparable to the working hours in Germany or France for example. Mortgage default rates or inability to pay the bills is also not that bad. Those who actually have trouble can seek better lives in the western Europe and many do and for quite many the good life is actually in Eastern Europe even if they would complain often. It's not like those countries lack some resource or something making them poor, it's their expectations. In fact, Eastern Europe has quite a favorable geography with nice climate, access to water and plenty of sunshine. It's such a nice location that those countries receive considerable amount of tourists. For those who are more ambitious, Eastern Europe offers everything they need - including powerful passports that let them go to the rich parts of the world hassle free.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    That nice, but I'm not sure what does it have to do with the point I was trying to make? Did I say anywhere Eastern Europe sucks? My point was that Eastern Europe is now prosperous precisely because after the fall of communism it prioritized getting wealthy and making money first, which is what my parent was scoffing at, which led me to believe he must be form a country who's prosperity was built much earlier in the distant past and he forgot what life without economic prosperity looks like, but Greeks or Eastern Europeans still remember. His attitude felt incredibly hypocritical. Prosperity comes from wealth. You can have a lack of prosperity even with wealth, but you can't have prosperity without wealth.
- closewith 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - eyesofgod 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - closewith 1y ago
      > What incentive people have to work harder than average to innovate if there's no measurable reward at the end and you end with the same QoL as people doing the bare minimum? The quality of life at all social levels is higher in the EU than the US. This can't be measured in dollars, but is clear across all other HDI metrics. > Asia and the US ate half of the EU's pie of the global GDP in the last 20 years and it's only gonna get worse from here. This is because of global wealth redistribution and is a good thing. Rich Europeans extracting wealth from the global poor was (and is) a bad outcome. The same will happen to the US, and again it's a good thing. > Then why does it need NATO bases of the US on its turf, if it's so strong by itself? I think the real question is why does the US need bases around the world? > Secondly, even if you consider it as one, all of EU militaries combined can't hold a candle to US military in terms of tech and logistical capabilities and sheer numbers. The EU members are individually and combined no longer able to field expeditionary armies. This is a good thing, as the former colonial powers didn't use them wisely in the past. However, there is no military power globally who can threaten the integrity of the EU militarily, not even the US. The US military is a source of endless death and destruction in the world. It's not something you should be proud of. The current forever wars and the unbroken chain of foreign invasions are a series of crimes against humanity. > Ah, so no augments, just insults. OK buddy, thanks for the red flag, I'm out of this discussion. I think you may fail to see the irony in this comment?
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
Aloisius 1y ago
Forgive me for being skeptical, but socialists have been predicting the collapse of the United States due to the working class awakening for over a century. I'm not going to hold my breath.
- closewith 1y ago
  That's a fair enough perspective, but your alternative future is an enduring oligarchy, so you should be hoping for collapse.
  - Aloisius 1y ago
    Thanks but no thanks. If history is any guide, citizens almost always end up in far worse shape in actual dystopian nightmares when states collapse. I'll happily take stability living under an "oligarchy" with relatively weak and divided oligarchs, in a country with free elections that can still effect change, even if it happens at a glacial pace.
wolvesechoes 1y ago
Yes, I am all for social democracy, but to have welfare you need to build it. Europe had a nice time living on the dividend from the wealth it gathered in the past, and the fact that US provided military protection. Society becomes older, and US is withdrawing, so that model is no longer viable. To win you need to have strength. And to build your strength you need to work quite hard. Nothing comes free in this world. I would prefer that Europe sacrifices some of its comfort and survives because of it, instead of dying out with a claim to moral victory.
- closewith 1y ago
  Europe works hard. Europe is not decaying, not like the United States at least. You lack the introspection to see that. Europe is strong, stronger than the United States in its core institutions. You also lack the introspection to see that. It is the United States that is at risk of losing its sovereignty, its wealth, and it's power. Again, you lack the introspection to see that too.
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Quite hard to use the power of introspection in such context, for I am not a continent.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

> Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens) If only Europeans could pay their mortgages and bills with morals instead of money. If only Russia could be defeated by morals and not weapons. If only the pensions and welfare Europeans enjoy could be funded my morals and not by economic growth. As usual, people who keep scoffing at economic growth saying "money doesn't matter" are those living in a bubble where they already have more than enough money and never experienced massive economic decline and take the economic prosperity they had for granted. Ask Greece or Eastern European countries how they feel about winning economically.

mrtksn 1y ago
Eastern European countries are surprisingly nice actually. Those are safe, free, have access to good food and anyone who is living in those is living because they choose to. The only ones that complain are those who want to have the cake and eat it too. In general, the life in those countries is quite relaxed just as the working conditions. You may see thing like working hours are long but those working hours are not comparable to the working hours in Germany or France for example. Mortgage default rates or inability to pay the bills is also not that bad. Those who actually have trouble can seek better lives in the western Europe and many do and for quite many the good life is actually in Eastern Europe even if they would complain often. It's not like those countries lack some resource or something making them poor, it's their expectations. In fact, Eastern Europe has quite a favorable geography with nice climate, access to water and plenty of sunshine. It's such a nice location that those countries receive considerable amount of tourists. For those who are more ambitious, Eastern Europe offers everything they need - including powerful passports that let them go to the rich parts of the world hassle free.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  That nice, but I'm not sure what does it have to do with the point I was trying to make? Did I say anywhere Eastern Europe sucks? My point was that Eastern Europe is now prosperous precisely because after the fall of communism it prioritized getting wealthy and making money first, which is what my parent was scoffing at, which led me to believe he must be form a country who's prosperity was built much earlier in the distant past and he forgot what life without economic prosperity looks like, but Greeks or Eastern Europeans still remember. His attitude felt incredibly hypocritical. Prosperity comes from wealth. You can have a lack of prosperity even with wealth, but you can't have prosperity without wealth.
closewith 1y ago
[flagged]
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - eyesofgod 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - closewith 1y ago
    > What incentive people have to work harder than average to innovate if there's no measurable reward at the end and you end with the same QoL as people doing the bare minimum? The quality of life at all social levels is higher in the EU than the US. This can't be measured in dollars, but is clear across all other HDI metrics. > Asia and the US ate half of the EU's pie of the global GDP in the last 20 years and it's only gonna get worse from here. This is because of global wealth redistribution and is a good thing. Rich Europeans extracting wealth from the global poor was (and is) a bad outcome. The same will happen to the US, and again it's a good thing. > Then why does it need NATO bases of the US on its turf, if it's so strong by itself? I think the real question is why does the US need bases around the world? > Secondly, even if you consider it as one, all of EU militaries combined can't hold a candle to US military in terms of tech and logistical capabilities and sheer numbers. The EU members are individually and combined no longer able to field expeditionary armies. This is a good thing, as the former colonial powers didn't use them wisely in the past. However, there is no military power globally who can threaten the integrity of the EU militarily, not even the US. The US military is a source of endless death and destruction in the world. It's not something you should be proud of. The current forever wars and the unbroken chain of foreign invasions are a series of crimes against humanity. > Ah, so no augments, just insults. OK buddy, thanks for the red flag, I'm out of this discussion. I think you may fail to see the irony in this comment?
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]

Aloisius 1y ago

Forgive me for being skeptical, but socialists have been predicting the collapse of the United States due to the working class awakening for over a century. I'm not going to hold my breath.

closewith 1y ago
That's a fair enough perspective, but your alternative future is an enduring oligarchy, so you should be hoping for collapse.
- Aloisius 1y ago
  Thanks but no thanks. If history is any guide, citizens almost always end up in far worse shape in actual dystopian nightmares when states collapse. I'll happily take stability living under an "oligarchy" with relatively weak and divided oligarchs, in a country with free elections that can still effect change, even if it happens at a glacial pace.

wolvesechoes 1y ago

Yes, I am all for social democracy, but to have welfare you need to build it. Europe had a nice time living on the dividend from the wealth it gathered in the past, and the fact that US provided military protection. Society becomes older, and US is withdrawing, so that model is no longer viable. To win you need to have strength. And to build your strength you need to work quite hard. Nothing comes free in this world. I would prefer that Europe sacrifices some of its comfort and survives because of it, instead of dying out with a claim to moral victory.

closewith 1y ago
Europe works hard. Europe is not decaying, not like the United States at least. You lack the introspection to see that. Europe is strong, stronger than the United States in its core institutions. You also lack the introspection to see that. It is the United States that is at risk of losing its sovereignty, its wealth, and it's power. Again, you lack the introspection to see that too.
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Quite hard to use the power of introspection in such context, for I am not a continent.