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> Currently there aren't any restrictions, the political class is worried and people don't feel good about the maker of the products but that's it. There very

> Currently there aren't any restrictions, the political class is worried and people don't feel good about the maker of the products but that's it. There very clearly is the restriction, upheld by courts again and again, that EU personal data cannot be processed on US clouds, including EU-based but US-owned clouds thanks to the US CLOUD ACT. The political class and EU governments as a whole have kicked this can down the road several times, first with Safe Harbor, then Privacy Shield, and now the EU–US Data Privacy Framework which will inevitably fall. > Europe, or any place will be stuck with niche small businesses as long as US has access to their markets. This is just, well, untrue. Despite the oft-repeated claims to the contrary, the EU is an industrial and technological powerhouse. What it doesn't have are US oligopolies, which are currently destroying the fabric of US society while being enormously profitable. That's a feature of the EU, not a bug. > On Twitter you can find Euro tech boi's who will be repeating the same libertarian ideas as the US tech bros but the EU people make about as much as a successful restaurant and the US tech bros make often as much as a global restaurant chain or more. Wealth inequality is a failure of US society, not a goal.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
> here very clearly is the restriction, upheld by courts again and again, that EU personal data cannot be processed on US clouds, including EU-based but US-owned clouds thanks to the US CLOUD ACT. Have they? As far as I am aware there's been a lot of handwaving and possibly FUD but nothing more.
- closewith 1y ago
  Then you're not paying attention, as there is concrete precedence, in particular Schrems 2.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Schrems 2 does not do what you claim: the EU-US Privacy Shield is about sending EU data to the US, not about US companies keeping data in the EU. So I still don't know what "precedent" there might be. Surely if your claim was factual, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, etc would have ceased business in the EU...
    - closewith 1y ago
      You should read Schrems 2, specifically paragraphs 179 onwards, which set the now unchallenged precedent that data which remains in the EU but is subject to US legislation that allows access by US public authorities constitutes a transfer. > Surely if your claim was factual, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, etc would have ceased business in the EU... The legal cover is now the EU–US Data Privacy Framework, which allows these transfers subject to self certification. This is already under challenge and inevitably will fall judicial review in the next few years. Once all the delaying tactics have been dealt with, we'll be left with the inevitable conclusion. Data transfers to the US or US controlled companies are unlawful as long as the CLOUD Act and similar are in force. It's simply unreconcilable with the ECHR Right To Privacy and GDPR.
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        > which set the now unchallenged precedent that data which remains in the EU but is subject to US legislation that allows access by US public authorities constitutes a transfer. Not at all. Again, this is only about privacy shield and actual transfers to the US. > It's simply unreconcilable with the ECHR Right To Privacy and GDPR. That's the FUD I was talking about considering that this is exactly the same situation as access by EU-based law enforcement. EU is playing politics and is tangling itself in unworkable legislation.
        closewith 1y ago
        > Not at all. Again, this is only about privacy shield and actual transfers to the US. You are wrong on this. The CJEU ruled that making EU data “available” to an entity in a third country is a transfer, and the European Data Protection Board subsequently clarified that remote access from a third country triggers the GDPR transfer rules.
wolvesechoes 1y ago
> Wealth inequality is a failure of US society, not a goal. And moral victory is a poor substitute of the real victory.
- closewith 1y ago
  With respect, having lived across both continents, Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens). The United States is a cruel, dystopian nightmare of a market masquerading as a country. No amount of corporate success will save it from it's inevitable collapse as the working class awaken to their situation.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    > Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens) If only Europeans could pay their mortgages and bills with morals instead of money. If only Russia could be defeated by morals and not weapons. If only the pensions and welfare Europeans enjoy could be funded my morals and not by economic growth. As usual, people who keep scoffing at economic growth saying "money doesn't matter" are those living in a bubble where they already have more than enough money and never experienced massive economic decline and take the economic prosperity they had for granted. Ask Greece or Eastern European countries how they feel about winning economically.
    - mrtksn 1y ago
      Eastern European countries are surprisingly nice actually. Those are safe, free, have access to good food and anyone who is living in those is living because they choose to. The only ones that complain are those who want to have the cake and eat it too. In general, the life in those countries is quite relaxed just as the working conditions. You may see thing like working hours are long but those working hours are not comparable to the working hours in Germany or France for example. Mortgage default rates or inability to pay the bills is also not that bad. Those who actually have trouble can seek better lives in the western Europe and many do and for quite many the good life is actually in Eastern Europe even if they would complain often. It's not like those countries lack some resource or something making them poor, it's their expectations. In fact, Eastern Europe has quite a favorable geography with nice climate, access to water and plenty of sunshine. It's such a nice location that those countries receive considerable amount of tourists. For those who are more ambitious, Eastern Europe offers everything they need - including powerful passports that let them go to the rich parts of the world hassle free.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>What it doesn't have are US oligopolies, which are currently destroying the fabric of US society while being enormously profitable. Those oligopolies you claim are "destroying the fabric of US society" are also providing tones of skilled jobs in the US, pouring billions in research (how much FOSS is developed at FAANGs?), and are a vital source of US soft and hard power, while also building a cloud for the German military[1][2] because EU tech industry is far so behind no EU company can replicate what Google can do here at their scale. It's not FAANG's fault there are problems in the US society, that's a failure of US politicians. And there will always be oligopolies, always have been, better they be on your side that on your adversaries' side. If you cripple your companies to "destroy oligopolies" like your cheer the EU for, then China's state propped oligopolies will gladly step in to fill the vacuum and put your industries out of business. Morality and shaming others for not following your values never wins, power wins. That's Realpolitik. Crazy people still don't get it. > That's a feature of the EU, not a bug. It's a feature to have a stagnating economy of archaic companies that are in decline? [1] https://www.techzine.eu/news/infrastructure/131897/google-to-provide-air-gapped-distributed-cloud-to-german-bundeswehr/ https://www.techzine.eu/news/infrastructure/131897/google-to... [2] https://www.heise.de/en/news/Bundeswehr-relies-on-Google-Cloud-10397526.html https://www.heise.de/en/news/Bundeswehr-relies-on-Google-Clo...
- closewith 1y ago
  > And there will always be oligopolies, always have been, better they be on your side that on your adversaries' side. They're not on _your_ side, as much as you want to believe they are. > Morality and shaming others for not following your values never wins, power wins. Do you think the US is winning? The American people? Right now, Europeans are "winning" with the highest quality of life in the world. That's not true for the American population. > Crazy people still don't get it. I think we can both agree on that.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >They're not on _your_ side, as much as you want to believe they are. They're accountable to the government Americans vote for, that's what I meant. Better for them to be accountable to your government than a foreign government. >Do you think the US is winning? The American people? You're deflecting instead of answering my question: If Chinese oligopolies would replace them, would the US citizens be winning more or less? >Right now, Europeans are "winning" with the highest quality of life in the world. Tell that to Europeans who can't afford a home and who are struggling to pay the bills. HN users constantly pulling out a random statistic off Google to dispute the reality people actually live in is the bane of this forum. "You see, you can't be doing poorly, because the graph or the statistic shows otherwise". People don't care about meaningless statistics or graphs, they care about what's in their bank account and how that number has evolved(or devolved) compared to the past. People don't care that on paper they're theoretically higher in an index than Americans, when they're relatively worse off than they were 10 - 20 years ago. What matters is how people feel about their situation.

mytailorisrich 1y ago

> here very clearly is the restriction, upheld by courts again and again, that EU personal data cannot be processed on US clouds, including EU-based but US-owned clouds thanks to the US CLOUD ACT. Have they? As far as I am aware there's been a lot of handwaving and possibly FUD but nothing more.

closewith 1y ago
Then you're not paying attention, as there is concrete precedence, in particular Schrems 2.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  Schrems 2 does not do what you claim: the EU-US Privacy Shield is about sending EU data to the US, not about US companies keeping data in the EU. So I still don't know what "precedent" there might be. Surely if your claim was factual, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, etc would have ceased business in the EU...
  - closewith 1y ago
    You should read Schrems 2, specifically paragraphs 179 onwards, which set the now unchallenged precedent that data which remains in the EU but is subject to US legislation that allows access by US public authorities constitutes a transfer. > Surely if your claim was factual, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, etc would have ceased business in the EU... The legal cover is now the EU–US Data Privacy Framework, which allows these transfers subject to self certification. This is already under challenge and inevitably will fall judicial review in the next few years. Once all the delaying tactics have been dealt with, we'll be left with the inevitable conclusion. Data transfers to the US or US controlled companies are unlawful as long as the CLOUD Act and similar are in force. It's simply unreconcilable with the ECHR Right To Privacy and GDPR.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      > which set the now unchallenged precedent that data which remains in the EU but is subject to US legislation that allows access by US public authorities constitutes a transfer. Not at all. Again, this is only about privacy shield and actual transfers to the US. > It's simply unreconcilable with the ECHR Right To Privacy and GDPR. That's the FUD I was talking about considering that this is exactly the same situation as access by EU-based law enforcement. EU is playing politics and is tangling itself in unworkable legislation.
      - closewith 1y ago
        > Not at all. Again, this is only about privacy shield and actual transfers to the US. You are wrong on this. The CJEU ruled that making EU data “available” to an entity in a third country is a transfer, and the European Data Protection Board subsequently clarified that remote access from a third country triggers the GDPR transfer rules.

wolvesechoes 1y ago

> Wealth inequality is a failure of US society, not a goal. And moral victory is a poor substitute of the real victory.

closewith 1y ago
With respect, having lived across both continents, Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens). The United States is a cruel, dystopian nightmare of a market masquerading as a country. No amount of corporate success will save it from it's inevitable collapse as the working class awaken to their situation.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  > Europe is winning the real victory (as well as obviously the moral victory in as far as outcomes for its own citizens) If only Europeans could pay their mortgages and bills with morals instead of money. If only Russia could be defeated by morals and not weapons. If only the pensions and welfare Europeans enjoy could be funded my morals and not by economic growth. As usual, people who keep scoffing at economic growth saying "money doesn't matter" are those living in a bubble where they already have more than enough money and never experienced massive economic decline and take the economic prosperity they had for granted. Ask Greece or Eastern European countries how they feel about winning economically.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    Eastern European countries are surprisingly nice actually. Those are safe, free, have access to good food and anyone who is living in those is living because they choose to. The only ones that complain are those who want to have the cake and eat it too. In general, the life in those countries is quite relaxed just as the working conditions. You may see thing like working hours are long but those working hours are not comparable to the working hours in Germany or France for example. Mortgage default rates or inability to pay the bills is also not that bad. Those who actually have trouble can seek better lives in the western Europe and many do and for quite many the good life is actually in Eastern Europe even if they would complain often. It's not like those countries lack some resource or something making them poor, it's their expectations. In fact, Eastern Europe has quite a favorable geography with nice climate, access to water and plenty of sunshine. It's such a nice location that those countries receive considerable amount of tourists. For those who are more ambitious, Eastern Europe offers everything they need - including powerful passports that let them go to the rich parts of the world hassle free.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>What it doesn't have are US oligopolies, which are currently destroying the fabric of US society while being enormously profitable. Those oligopolies you claim are "destroying the fabric of US society" are also providing tones of skilled jobs in the US, pouring billions in research (how much FOSS is developed at FAANGs?), and are a vital source of US soft and hard power, while also building a cloud for the German military[1][2] because EU tech industry is far so behind no EU company can replicate what Google can do here at their scale. It's not FAANG's fault there are problems in the US society, that's a failure of US politicians. And there will always be oligopolies, always have been, better they be on your side that on your adversaries' side. If you cripple your companies to "destroy oligopolies" like your cheer the EU for, then China's state propped oligopolies will gladly step in to fill the vacuum and put your industries out of business. Morality and shaming others for not following your values never wins, power wins. That's Realpolitik. Crazy people still don't get it. > That's a feature of the EU, not a bug. It's a feature to have a stagnating economy of archaic companies that are in decline? [1] https://www.techzine.eu/news/infrastructure/131897/google-to-provide-air-gapped-distributed-cloud-to-german-bundeswehr/ https://www.techzine.eu/news/infrastructure/131897/google-to... [2] https://www.heise.de/en/news/Bundeswehr-relies-on-Google-Cloud-10397526.html https://www.heise.de/en/news/Bundeswehr-relies-on-Google-Clo...

closewith 1y ago
> And there will always be oligopolies, always have been, better they be on your side that on your adversaries' side. They're not on _your_ side, as much as you want to believe they are. > Morality and shaming others for not following your values never wins, power wins. Do you think the US is winning? The American people? Right now, Europeans are "winning" with the highest quality of life in the world. That's not true for the American population. > Crazy people still don't get it. I think we can both agree on that.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >They're not on _your_ side, as much as you want to believe they are. They're accountable to the government Americans vote for, that's what I meant. Better for them to be accountable to your government than a foreign government. >Do you think the US is winning? The American people? You're deflecting instead of answering my question: If Chinese oligopolies would replace them, would the US citizens be winning more or less? >Right now, Europeans are "winning" with the highest quality of life in the world. Tell that to Europeans who can't afford a home and who are struggling to pay the bills. HN users constantly pulling out a random statistic off Google to dispute the reality people actually live in is the bane of this forum. "You see, you can't be doing poorly, because the graph or the statistic shows otherwise". People don't care about meaningless statistics or graphs, they care about what's in their bank account and how that number has evolved(or devolved) compared to the past. People don't care that on paper they're theoretically higher in an index than Americans, when they're relatively worse off than they were 10 - 20 years ago. What matters is how people feel about their situation.