4 ms·

I hope someone will write an entertaining satire about the sometimes almost PTSD-like bitterness and bizarre selective perceptions of the "anti-PC" crowd, espec

I hope someone will write an entertaining satire about the sometimes almost PTSD-like bitterness and bizarre selective perceptions of the "anti-PC" crowd, especially in the Amiga space. :D Please don't take it too harshly, but your list of grievances is almost radically different to my experiences of personal computing in the late Eighties to mid-Nineties... to me somewhat of a faszinosum all on its own. In my litle corner of the world the Amiga was virtually nonexistant [1], largely undesireable, and prophesized to be a corpse already as early as 1991. I'll give you one thing, tho: A mostly non-plastic, compact keyboard computer case (Amiga 600-like) for a suitably powerful IBM compatible would've been awfully nice. Still would be, for a vintage bird that is. We only got "Schneiderplastik", the Euro-PC to be more precise [2], and that one wasn't updated in a satisfying fashion. 1. The only people I knew that had Commodores were two of my best friends, one with a Commodore 64, the other with a 128. The demosceners I grew up with were Atari ST guys, all of them (becoming) musicians. 2. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Euro_PC https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Euro_PC]

mrandish 1y ago
Sure, there is clearly some "rose-colored memory" effect going on - how could there not be? As someone who used Amigas, Atari STs, Macs and PCs back in the day - and who still owns over a hundred unique models of vintage 80s and 90s computers, they ALL suck in many annoying ways AND most had some unique strengths. We all learned to live with what we had and how to make it do what we needed done. People got accustomed to whatever personal computer they used every day and many grew fond of it. After all, the power and capability of a desktop computer in the 80s was unprecedented and, for many, revelatory. That said, in the mid-to-late 80s, the PC platform was generally under-powered dollar for dollar compared to most of its leading competitors, most of which were based on Motorola 680x0 CPUs. The strength of the PC during this time was it's rapidly expanding library of business software applications and hardware expansion options in the form of add-in cards (something which Apple had with the Apple II but abandoned for a while with the Mac, the Atari ST never really had and only the "professional" series Amiga's had (A2000, A3000, A4000). Being underpowered per dollar doesn't mean the PC couldn't be extremely useful or the best platform for a given scenario and it certainly doesn't mean there weren't hobbyists who used and loved their late 80s PCs as dearly as any other 80s personal computer owner. Of course, this power balance was largely addressed by the mid-90s - which is why the PC juggernaut then extinguished the Amiga, Atari and (very nearly) the Mac.
- spankibalt 1y ago
  I don't think we negotiate the same phenomenon. You seem to describe the harmless, almost romantic indulgences of nostalgics. I talk about the bizarre, often enough toxic distorsions of a certain breed of user, who still fights, after all these years, their Platform War. The sort of fan who blames "the PC" for the "ills of the industry". Anyway, off to some specifics: > "The strength of the PC during this time was it's rapidly expanding library of business software applications and hardware expansion options in the form of add-in cards [...]". A standardized general-purpose computing platform "for the future". Exactly what spoke to me, as disseminated in the publications I read as a kid in 1991. > "Of course, this power balance was largely addressed by the mid-90s - which is why the PC juggernaut then extinguished the Amiga, Atari and (very nearly) the Mac." "Power balance"? I didn't think in such abstracts when I made my choice, and conducted the long and merciless attrition-lobbying campaign for financial support, to buy a PC. The Amigas and the Ataris were simply not a factor for a variety of different, but very tangible and practical reasons: Atari ST? I was not (on my way to become) a musician with the need for a precise and affordable backpack-portable computer instrument. Amigas? The big birds were seen, outside of some specialist-niches, as uneconomical compared to their IBM-compatible brethren. The vanilla home computers were seen as affordable, but extremely limited, racking-up (hidden) secondary costs to make them more usable. Often enough they carried a certain cultural stigma as well, being perceived by our financiers as gaming toys and therefore time wasters. And most importantly? No one I personally knew had an Amiga. Who to swap software with, where to find a mentor? Yeah... The Atari guys I befriended used their machines almost exclusively for dabbling in electronic music, later as part of the emerging East German EBM and hard techno scene. Games? The titles I was interested in either didn't exist on M68k platforms (flight simulations à la Aces of the Pacific, wargames such as the Harpoon series, or adventures like The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes), were practically unplayable (e. g. Red Baron), considered inferior (e. g. Wing Commander)... or just came out too late. By listening to stories of some Britons of my age, it only recently came to my attention how privileged I have actually been. Some of these people told me stories of buying their first A600s or A1200s only in 1993! At that time it was hard to separate me from my trusty, second-hand PC... a machine with a CPU-type nearing its eighth (!) birthday (386DX-25).
  - 1y ago
gapan 1y ago
There were others too. At least the Olivetti Prodest PC1 [1], which I had, and the Sinclair PC200 [2], which a close friend had. Other friends had the EuroPC, some had the Amstrad 1512 and other different PC compatible boxes. I remember my PC1 fondly. Well, I still have it. I learned to code in GW-BASIC, Turbo Pascal and C (in that order) with it. I was using it for a long time, until 1997, for serious work (coding and university assignments), when I finally had the money to upgrade to a Pentium PC. As much as my world was PC-centric, the first time I saw an Atari ST and what it could do, my jaw dropped. I knew of the Amiga from magazines, but the first time I actually saw one was several years later, after I acquired my Pentium PC and I admit it wasn't that impressive then. But still I couldn't help but think: "wow, you had that in 1989?". There was no comparison with the PCs of its time. [1] https://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/prodestpc1.html https://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/prodestpc1.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_PC200 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_PC200
- spankibalt 1y ago
  Thank you; interesting machines. A modern, compact industrial-grade metal keyboard case PC with an external PSU, and some quality of life goodies, built around a Pentium MMX or Pentium II CPU, is really something I would fork over money for. Essentially something along the lines of C64EVOs planned MODLR case. [1] > But still I couldn't help but think: "wow, you had that in 1989?". There was no comparison with the PCs of its time. This speaks more of local market realities, e. g. "demo software" on hardware in an actual computer shop or, as in your example, at a friend's home, especially in the form of 2D arcade action games, then at its peak of popularity on 8- and 16-bit home computers... and yet to shine on PCs (and as opposed to glossies and the like, where the first 486 machines stepped onto the stage turn of the year 89/90). But at that time I wasn't thinking about computers that much, still digesting the beginning of the end of the GDR. 1. [https://xcancel.com/C64EVO/status/1893158033917669785 https://xcancel.com/C64EVO/status/1893158033917669785]
hnlmorg 1y ago
I was predominantly a PC user. In fact I had a side hustle repairing PCs in the 80s and 90s. It wasn’t fun but it was tax free pocket money. Every time I got to play on non-PC home computers I’d be blown away by how much better those machines were. These days I collect retro hardware and the Atari STs and Amigas are still easier to maintain. So my opinions aren’t that of a Amiga fanboy. PCs in the 80s were really that shit. I do think a lot of the problem was Microsoft though. I never liked any of Microsoft’s software even back then. And that was long before they gained the reputation that so many older timers like myself still remind people about. I actually wrote my own windowing system in Pascal because I was fed up with early Windows. It wasn’t a patch on GEM but back then I didn’t know you could run GEM on a PC.
- spankibalt 1y ago
  Fair enough. I never had serious problems with my PCs... or Microsoft's OS offerings. And all that maintenance song and dance around these machines, before Plug & Play became reliable, came almost naturally to us. No surprise here, we were insatiably curious, able to read the manuals, and not afraid to ask.
schlupa 1y ago
OP's grievances are spot on for the period 1985 to 1990. After that, PC's did indeed gain enough power (386 were mass and 486 just came out), also VGA started to become. This means that your perception built especially after 1990 is right but doesn't contradict OP's list as Atari's and Amiga's were indeed much much more advanced and useful than XP's and 286 under MS-DOS/CGA.

mrandish 1y ago

Sure, there is clearly some "rose-colored memory" effect going on - how could there not be? As someone who used Amigas, Atari STs, Macs and PCs back in the day - and who still owns over a hundred unique models of vintage 80s and 90s computers, they ALL suck in many annoying ways AND most had some unique strengths. We all learned to live with what we had and how to make it do what we needed done. People got accustomed to whatever personal computer they used every day and many grew fond of it. After all, the power and capability of a desktop computer in the 80s was unprecedented and, for many, revelatory. That said, in the mid-to-late 80s, the PC platform was generally under-powered dollar for dollar compared to most of its leading competitors, most of which were based on Motorola 680x0 CPUs. The strength of the PC during this time was it's rapidly expanding library of business software applications and hardware expansion options in the form of add-in cards (something which Apple had with the Apple II but abandoned for a while with the Mac, the Atari ST never really had and only the "professional" series Amiga's had (A2000, A3000, A4000). Being underpowered per dollar doesn't mean the PC couldn't be extremely useful or the best platform for a given scenario and it certainly doesn't mean there weren't hobbyists who used and loved their late 80s PCs as dearly as any other 80s personal computer owner. Of course, this power balance was largely addressed by the mid-90s - which is why the PC juggernaut then extinguished the Amiga, Atari and (very nearly) the Mac.

spankibalt 1y ago
I don't think we negotiate the same phenomenon. You seem to describe the harmless, almost romantic indulgences of nostalgics. I talk about the bizarre, often enough toxic distorsions of a certain breed of user, who still fights, after all these years, their Platform War. The sort of fan who blames "the PC" for the "ills of the industry". Anyway, off to some specifics: > "The strength of the PC during this time was it's rapidly expanding library of business software applications and hardware expansion options in the form of add-in cards [...]". A standardized general-purpose computing platform "for the future". Exactly what spoke to me, as disseminated in the publications I read as a kid in 1991. > "Of course, this power balance was largely addressed by the mid-90s - which is why the PC juggernaut then extinguished the Amiga, Atari and (very nearly) the Mac." "Power balance"? I didn't think in such abstracts when I made my choice, and conducted the long and merciless attrition-lobbying campaign for financial support, to buy a PC. The Amigas and the Ataris were simply not a factor for a variety of different, but very tangible and practical reasons: Atari ST? I was not (on my way to become) a musician with the need for a precise and affordable backpack-portable computer instrument. Amigas? The big birds were seen, outside of some specialist-niches, as uneconomical compared to their IBM-compatible brethren. The vanilla home computers were seen as affordable, but extremely limited, racking-up (hidden) secondary costs to make them more usable. Often enough they carried a certain cultural stigma as well, being perceived by our financiers as gaming toys and therefore time wasters. And most importantly? No one I personally knew had an Amiga. Who to swap software with, where to find a mentor? Yeah... The Atari guys I befriended used their machines almost exclusively for dabbling in electronic music, later as part of the emerging East German EBM and hard techno scene. Games? The titles I was interested in either didn't exist on M68k platforms (flight simulations à la Aces of the Pacific, wargames such as the Harpoon series, or adventures like The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes), were practically unplayable (e. g. Red Baron), considered inferior (e. g. Wing Commander)... or just came out too late. By listening to stories of some Britons of my age, it only recently came to my attention how privileged I have actually been. Some of these people told me stories of buying their first A600s or A1200s only in 1993! At that time it was hard to separate me from my trusty, second-hand PC... a machine with a CPU-type nearing its eighth (!) birthday (386DX-25).
- 1y ago

gapan 1y ago

There were others too. At least the Olivetti Prodest PC1 [1], which I had, and the Sinclair PC200 [2], which a close friend had. Other friends had the EuroPC, some had the Amstrad 1512 and other different PC compatible boxes. I remember my PC1 fondly. Well, I still have it. I learned to code in GW-BASIC, Turbo Pascal and C (in that order) with it. I was using it for a long time, until 1997, for serious work (coding and university assignments), when I finally had the money to upgrade to a Pentium PC. As much as my world was PC-centric, the first time I saw an Atari ST and what it could do, my jaw dropped. I knew of the Amiga from magazines, but the first time I actually saw one was several years later, after I acquired my Pentium PC and I admit it wasn't that impressive then. But still I couldn't help but think: "wow, you had that in 1989?". There was no comparison with the PCs of its time. [1] https://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/prodestpc1.html https://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/prodestpc1.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_PC200 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_PC200

spankibalt 1y ago
Thank you; interesting machines. A modern, compact industrial-grade metal keyboard case PC with an external PSU, and some quality of life goodies, built around a Pentium MMX or Pentium II CPU, is really something I would fork over money for. Essentially something along the lines of C64EVOs planned MODLR case. [1] > But still I couldn't help but think: "wow, you had that in 1989?". There was no comparison with the PCs of its time. This speaks more of local market realities, e. g. "demo software" on hardware in an actual computer shop or, as in your example, at a friend's home, especially in the form of 2D arcade action games, then at its peak of popularity on 8- and 16-bit home computers... and yet to shine on PCs (and as opposed to glossies and the like, where the first 486 machines stepped onto the stage turn of the year 89/90). But at that time I wasn't thinking about computers that much, still digesting the beginning of the end of the GDR. 1. [https://xcancel.com/C64EVO/status/1893158033917669785 https://xcancel.com/C64EVO/status/1893158033917669785]

hnlmorg 1y ago

I was predominantly a PC user. In fact I had a side hustle repairing PCs in the 80s and 90s. It wasn’t fun but it was tax free pocket money. Every time I got to play on non-PC home computers I’d be blown away by how much better those machines were. These days I collect retro hardware and the Atari STs and Amigas are still easier to maintain. So my opinions aren’t that of a Amiga fanboy. PCs in the 80s were really that shit. I do think a lot of the problem was Microsoft though. I never liked any of Microsoft’s software even back then. And that was long before they gained the reputation that so many older timers like myself still remind people about. I actually wrote my own windowing system in Pascal because I was fed up with early Windows. It wasn’t a patch on GEM but back then I didn’t know you could run GEM on a PC.

spankibalt 1y ago
Fair enough. I never had serious problems with my PCs... or Microsoft's OS offerings. And all that maintenance song and dance around these machines, before Plug & Play became reliable, came almost naturally to us. No surprise here, we were insatiably curious, able to read the manuals, and not afraid to ask.

schlupa 1y ago

OP's grievances are spot on for the period 1985 to 1990. After that, PC's did indeed gain enough power (386 were mass and 486 just came out), also VGA started to become. This means that your perception built especially after 1990 is right but doesn't contradict OP's list as Atari's and Amiga's were indeed much much more advanced and useful than XP's and 286 under MS-DOS/CGA.