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I backspaced the comment I started typing, which was suggestions that required universities to rediscover ideals and backbone, and would like to instead ask a q

by neilv 1y ago

I backspaced the comment I started typing, which was suggestions that required universities to rediscover ideals and backbone, and would like to instead ask a question... For those who went to schools with strong honor codes, would you advocate that to others? For example, did you find an environment of trust and respect, like you've not seen elsewhere? For another example, do you have strong post-graduation alumni network, where someone in the alumni directory isn't just a possible foot in the door for sales ("hey, we went to the same school, can you grant me the courtesy of a call"), but that you can assume they are likely honest and have integrity? Did it improve the quality of your education? Were there downsides?

glitchc 1y ago
Honor only works if individual participants hold themselves to a higher standard. Once you have a couple of folks who are in it to maximize their return, FOMO guarantees that it quickly becomes an arms race.
aprilthird2021 1y ago
I saw a lot of cheating, but at the same time everyone I became friends with and still keep in my network was super trustworthy. Some people will cheat. Honor code or not. But, especially if you go to a very good school, the people who don't need to cheat or don't want to, will always be worth knowing.
onetimeusename 1y ago
My school recently had to change the honor code because there was so much cheating but the administration and student senate don't like bringing that up. The honor code for 100 years previously had been weaker, to the point of not having proctors for exams. The student senate opposed changes to the honor code. There's been an exponential increase in honor code violations and yet less enforcement because, imo, the school can't afford to suspend so many people. I think what's happening is kind of dark. Universities might be slowly returning to what they were a long time ago which is a place of learning. In recent times they have been selling prestige to credentialists. It turns out that those people don't really need to take the classes especially with the internet and AI now being resources. So the universities are stuck between earning more revenue yet having decreasing academic integrity versus having lower revenue and catering to a smaller group of people. The honor code itself doesn't really seem to change how people behave. Anecdotally, I hear that cheating increases every year from whispers of CS profs and TAs. I feel like if you are going to use AI to cheat, as one example, why not skip the university altogether? I think the lack of academic integrity will lead to that in some form or another.
- neilv 1y ago
  Sorry to hear about the cheating. Do you know, as cheating increased, was there peer pushback against the cheaters, such as overt disapproval that lowers the cheater's social status? Or, were cheaters secretive from fellow students, so mostly only profs and TAs could tell? If cheaters were secretive from fellow students, was it out of fear of hurting their peer social status, or fear of being ratted out and facing school disciplinary action?
  - onetimeusename 1y ago
    I don't know anyone caught personally but profs would make announcements about how they found a lot of GPT answers or plagiarism. I've heard profs say they find a lot of cheating but also students are given so many warnings and opportunities to fix it. You can choose to take a 0 on an assignment if you report yourself by the end of the quarter which probably masks it. Usually that doesn't even hurt your grade when 75% is exams. I don't know if it's true but the school bought software (unless that was a made up threat) to find plagiarism that includes sources like code from stackoverflow. The school seems to keep it private who is caught but I also don't think anyone is punished harshly. Despite all of this I am not aware of anyone being suspended or expelled. I assume there were people who would cheat on actual exams so exams now have proctors and there are assigned seats. The school wouldn't have insisted on proctors being in the honor code without a reason. I think the fear of getting caught/ratted out is more salient. Use of GPT is so pervasive, just in general, that there's probably more cheating than there is not. Imagine people who rely on GPT for tasks like what they should eat suddenly not using it for hw. I think most just want their A- and their degree and to move on.
- Suppafly 1y ago
  >I feel like if you are going to use AI to cheat, as one example, why not skip the university altogether? That same reason people used other methods to cheat in the past, a degree is valuable to have in the job market. I honestly doubt cheating is even increasing, they are just lazier about it now.
  - onetimeusename 1y ago
andrewflnr 1y ago
I'm confused about why formal honor codes are in this conversation. If they had any significant effect on plagiarism, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't know if my university had a strong honor code because it never once came up in conversation.
- neilv 1y ago
  Strong (not formal) honor codes are in the conversation because my intended arguments for solutions to the plagiarism problems are predicated on there being value to a culture of honorable conduct in a university. So I was looking for real world examples. Strong honor codes aren't the norm, so I don't think you could say we wouldn't be having this conversation if they had any significant effect on plagiarism.
fewdaysto2025 1y ago
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by neilv 1y ago

glitchc 1y ago

Honor only works if individual participants hold themselves to a higher standard. Once you have a couple of folks who are in it to maximize their return, FOMO guarantees that it quickly becomes an arms race.

aprilthird2021 1y ago

I saw a lot of cheating, but at the same time everyone I became friends with and still keep in my network was super trustworthy. Some people will cheat. Honor code or not. But, especially if you go to a very good school, the people who don't need to cheat or don't want to, will always be worth knowing.

onetimeusename 1y ago

My school recently had to change the honor code because there was so much cheating but the administration and student senate don't like bringing that up. The honor code for 100 years previously had been weaker, to the point of not having proctors for exams. The student senate opposed changes to the honor code. There's been an exponential increase in honor code violations and yet less enforcement because, imo, the school can't afford to suspend so many people. I think what's happening is kind of dark. Universities might be slowly returning to what they were a long time ago which is a place of learning. In recent times they have been selling prestige to credentialists. It turns out that those people don't really need to take the classes especially with the internet and AI now being resources. So the universities are stuck between earning more revenue yet having decreasing academic integrity versus having lower revenue and catering to a smaller group of people. The honor code itself doesn't really seem to change how people behave. Anecdotally, I hear that cheating increases every year from whispers of CS profs and TAs. I feel like if you are going to use AI to cheat, as one example, why not skip the university altogether? I think the lack of academic integrity will lead to that in some form or another.

neilv 1y ago
Sorry to hear about the cheating. Do you know, as cheating increased, was there peer pushback against the cheaters, such as overt disapproval that lowers the cheater's social status? Or, were cheaters secretive from fellow students, so mostly only profs and TAs could tell? If cheaters were secretive from fellow students, was it out of fear of hurting their peer social status, or fear of being ratted out and facing school disciplinary action?
- onetimeusename 1y ago
  I don't know anyone caught personally but profs would make announcements about how they found a lot of GPT answers or plagiarism. I've heard profs say they find a lot of cheating but also students are given so many warnings and opportunities to fix it. You can choose to take a 0 on an assignment if you report yourself by the end of the quarter which probably masks it. Usually that doesn't even hurt your grade when 75% is exams. I don't know if it's true but the school bought software (unless that was a made up threat) to find plagiarism that includes sources like code from stackoverflow. The school seems to keep it private who is caught but I also don't think anyone is punished harshly. Despite all of this I am not aware of anyone being suspended or expelled. I assume there were people who would cheat on actual exams so exams now have proctors and there are assigned seats. The school wouldn't have insisted on proctors being in the honor code without a reason. I think the fear of getting caught/ratted out is more salient. Use of GPT is so pervasive, just in general, that there's probably more cheating than there is not. Imagine people who rely on GPT for tasks like what they should eat suddenly not using it for hw. I think most just want their A- and their degree and to move on.
Suppafly 1y ago
>I feel like if you are going to use AI to cheat, as one example, why not skip the university altogether? That same reason people used other methods to cheat in the past, a degree is valuable to have in the job market. I honestly doubt cheating is even increasing, they are just lazier about it now.
- onetimeusename 1y ago

andrewflnr 1y ago

I'm confused about why formal honor codes are in this conversation. If they had any significant effect on plagiarism, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't know if my university had a strong honor code because it never once came up in conversation.

neilv 1y ago
Strong (not formal) honor codes are in the conversation because my intended arguments for solutions to the plagiarism problems are predicated on there being value to a culture of honorable conduct in a university. So I was looking for real world examples. Strong honor codes aren't the norm, so I don't think you could say we wouldn't be having this conversation if they had any significant effect on plagiarism.

fewdaysto2025 1y ago

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