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<RANT>Most "Software Engineers" AREN'T ACTUALLY ENGINEERS... it's illegal in many states to use that title if you're not licensed with the state's Professional

<RANT>Most "Software Engineers" AREN'T ACTUALLY ENGINEERS... it's illegal in many states to use that title if you're not licensed with the state's Professional Engineering Board. If you haven't taken professional engineering exams, and passed, you're not an Engineer. STOP IT! </RANT>

deleted 1y ago
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dcminter 1y ago
Upvoted because I disagree with this (I presume your downvoters also disagree). My degree course actually had the option of converting to a BEng from a BSc if you so chose once you'd done your industry year.
nicbou 1y ago
I'd say that engineering is in this case a mindset. It means bringing rigour and precision to the craft. I agree that many software developers are not software engineers.
- kazinator 1y ago
  The problem is that "rigour" is defined by a religious belief in some particular set of OCD habits.
  - nicbou 1y ago
    No? Rigour means setting up systems and countermeasures to ensure a certain standard of quality. It's the science of delivering reliable software.
drrob 1y ago
I agree, but I still call myself a software engineer...
gooodvibes 1y ago
I can see being annoyed by a software engineer calling themselves "engineer" without the qualifier. But almost nobody does that, it's always "software engineer" - take it as a whole term instead of getting hung up on the word engineer being in it. And if a person 1. lives in a jurisdiction where the restrictions on the "engineer" label don't apply 2. has a job and the job title in their contract is "software engineer" what should they do according to you - not use their actual job title out of reverence for the professional standards of people with a different profession in a different country?
1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
Perhaps this is an unpopular fact rather than an unpopular opinion. Here is an example of HN commenters trying to dismiss it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37233321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37233321 The so-called "software engineer" may not have a university degree. They may have only worked for employers who themselves were college dropouts. Tradespeople with only a high school education have licensing requirements; they can all themselves professionals. The so-called "software engineer" has no licensing requirements. Using computers, software and the internet as a Trojan Horse to collect data and provide advertising services, unlike trades and other licensed professions, is mostly unregulated. The behaviour that so-called "software engineers" routinely engage in is the entithesis of professionalism. HN commenters often express disdain for formal education. Perhaps it is too difficult for them to complete the requirements to become licensed professionals. Generally, liability for use of the "software engineer's" work product, i.e., software, is disclaimed in softwaare licenses or "terms and conditions" attached to websites or mobile apps. The so-called "software engineer" has no meaningful legal responsibility to software users. How can software today, so-called "modern" software, be so bad and getting worse. Perhaps this is how.
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  I agree. When I started my career I thought of myself as a programmer. The idea of engineer didn't cross my mind.
msgodel 1y ago
Eh. The reason you call people engineers is that they certify/sign off on designs/releases. It's bureaucracy + technical knowledge. For the sake of efficiency they're usually also the ones who create the designs. IME this is what the difference between software developer and software engineer means. No there's no licensing board, that's probably a good thing IMO, if there was any more policy involved than we already have software would probably be worse. Also in my state CS grads are allowed to sit for the FE if they want. No one does this of course.

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dcminter 1y ago

Upvoted because I disagree with this (I presume your downvoters also disagree). My degree course actually had the option of converting to a BEng from a BSc if you so chose once you'd done your industry year.

nicbou 1y ago

I'd say that engineering is in this case a mindset. It means bringing rigour and precision to the craft. I agree that many software developers are not software engineers.

kazinator 1y ago
The problem is that "rigour" is defined by a religious belief in some particular set of OCD habits.
- nicbou 1y ago
  No? Rigour means setting up systems and countermeasures to ensure a certain standard of quality. It's the science of delivering reliable software.

drrob 1y ago

I agree, but I still call myself a software engineer...

gooodvibes 1y ago

I can see being annoyed by a software engineer calling themselves "engineer" without the qualifier. But almost nobody does that, it's always "software engineer" - take it as a whole term instead of getting hung up on the word engineer being in it. And if a person 1. lives in a jurisdiction where the restrictions on the "engineer" label don't apply 2. has a job and the job title in their contract is "software engineer" what should they do according to you - not use their actual job title out of reverence for the professional standards of people with a different profession in a different country?

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

Perhaps this is an unpopular fact rather than an unpopular opinion. Here is an example of HN commenters trying to dismiss it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37233321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37233321 The so-called "software engineer" may not have a university degree. They may have only worked for employers who themselves were college dropouts. Tradespeople with only a high school education have licensing requirements; they can all themselves professionals. The so-called "software engineer" has no licensing requirements. Using computers, software and the internet as a Trojan Horse to collect data and provide advertising services, unlike trades and other licensed professions, is mostly unregulated. The behaviour that so-called "software engineers" routinely engage in is the entithesis of professionalism. HN commenters often express disdain for formal education. Perhaps it is too difficult for them to complete the requirements to become licensed professionals. Generally, liability for use of the "software engineer's" work product, i.e., software, is disclaimed in softwaare licenses or "terms and conditions" attached to websites or mobile apps. The so-called "software engineer" has no meaningful legal responsibility to software users. How can software today, so-called "modern" software, be so bad and getting worse. Perhaps this is how.

bravesoul2 1y ago
I agree. When I started my career I thought of myself as a programmer. The idea of engineer didn't cross my mind.

msgodel 1y ago

Eh. The reason you call people engineers is that they certify/sign off on designs/releases. It's bureaucracy + technical knowledge. For the sake of efficiency they're usually also the ones who create the designs. IME this is what the difference between software developer and software engineer means. No there's no licensing board, that's probably a good thing IMO, if there was any more policy involved than we already have software would probably be worse. Also in my state CS grads are allowed to sit for the FE if they want. No one does this of course.