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There also seems to be a product problem here - people who want EVs tend to care about energy efficiency. People who want muscle cars want to show off power. Wh

There also seems to be a product problem here - people who want EVs tend to care about energy efficiency. People who want muscle cars want to show off power. While EVs do have way more torque than ICE engines, I'd still be curious how much market research Dodge did to see whether there was enough overlap in those two crowds to make an electric Charger succeed even in a good market?

palmfacehn 1y ago
I'm reminded of the popular nostalgia for small pickups like the old Ford Ranger. There has always been a discrepancy between market demand and central planners' "virtuous consumption". From the manufacturer's perspective, perhaps they overestimated the EV trend or how consumers would respond to tax credits. It is easy to imagine how an echochamber would influence the former and bean counting would influence the latter.
- nebula8804 1y ago
  This is just a hypothesis but I think it was the Tesla stock price shooting to the moon during COVID and shareholders asking all the auto companies why they don't have an EV roadmap. That pressure caused the rushed designs that flopped(Bolt EUV, the later compliance cars, and first attempts like Mache) and then some companies (GM, Hyundai, maybe Toyota in 2026) got their act together and started releasing better platforms. The problem is even though there are better options, prices are still too high and we are in a moment where people are cash poor. Therefore practical vehicles (Prius, Rav4 Hybrid) sell well while cars that might evoke excitement in good times but are poor investments (anything Stellantis makes) are just sitting on dealership lots.
  - Alive-in-2025 1y ago
    Bolt was a success in terms of sales and the new ones also looks to sell well.
    - nebula8804 1y ago
      The Bolt was the supposed "Tesla Killer". I'd argue it fell short of those expectation. Especially first Gen which was a car based on their cheapest platform to expedite the speed of which it was released. This was to prove to wall street that they had the expertise to make a product that could meet Tesla's challenge. Given what they have learned over the last 8 or so years, of course the upcoming Bolt will be much better but my point was that the first (and second) gen Bolt was a rush job. In terms of sales I guess it depends on what the expectations were but a Tesla killer it was not.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    > Therefore practical vehicles (Prius, Rav4 Hybrid) sell well while cars that might evoke excitement in good times but are poor investments (anything Stellantis makes) are just sitting on dealership lots Stellantis? Surprised they have a bad reputation on cost (or, conversely, a reputation for evoking excitement), but I guess export market is different from domestic. Isn't Dacia part of that group? Seeing a lot with that badge here in Germany these days (even in Brandenburg, which is former DDR and therefore low GDP/capita).
    - nebula8804 1y ago
      >Stellantis? Surprised they have a bad reputation on cost (or, conversely, a reputation for evoking excitement), but I guess export market is different from domestic. Isn't Dacia part of that group? Seeing a lot with that badge here in Germany these days (even in Brandenburg, which is former DDR and therefore low GDP/capita). Oh sorry I was referring to what is sold in the US. When you are not unique in cost, efficiency, reliability, what do you have left? Make something that is cool. If you want to sum up their US lineup in two videos just watch the following lol [1]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IB4qS9Lv5Mo https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IB4qS9Lv5Mo [2]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MI_6FrQDrVw https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MI_6FrQDrVw
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
In general the existing carmakers have a problem with EVs: Dealers make a lot of money on service, and EVs don't need nearly as much service. So dealers don't want to sell EVs. What's likely to happen is one of two things. Either the battery prices continue to come down, in which case EVs will get cheap enough that customers will be demanding them for cost reasons. Or the battery prices don't come down and then people start to realize that the most attractive thing in that environment is a plug-in hybrid, because they can run in full electric mode most of the time but you can put in half as much battery as a full EV and not have any trouble with range. And they can be faster than anything else because they have two power plants. But that's only 95% of the market. The 5% that not only wants a snarling V8 but wants it bad enough to actually buy one? They want something that makes an obnoxious noise, and a fake obnoxious noise isn't going to suit. Which is why nobody is buying this Charger.

palmfacehn 1y ago

I'm reminded of the popular nostalgia for small pickups like the old Ford Ranger. There has always been a discrepancy between market demand and central planners' "virtuous consumption". From the manufacturer's perspective, perhaps they overestimated the EV trend or how consumers would respond to tax credits. It is easy to imagine how an echochamber would influence the former and bean counting would influence the latter.

nebula8804 1y ago
This is just a hypothesis but I think it was the Tesla stock price shooting to the moon during COVID and shareholders asking all the auto companies why they don't have an EV roadmap. That pressure caused the rushed designs that flopped(Bolt EUV, the later compliance cars, and first attempts like Mache) and then some companies (GM, Hyundai, maybe Toyota in 2026) got their act together and started releasing better platforms. The problem is even though there are better options, prices are still too high and we are in a moment where people are cash poor. Therefore practical vehicles (Prius, Rav4 Hybrid) sell well while cars that might evoke excitement in good times but are poor investments (anything Stellantis makes) are just sitting on dealership lots.
- Alive-in-2025 1y ago
  Bolt was a success in terms of sales and the new ones also looks to sell well.
  - nebula8804 1y ago
    The Bolt was the supposed "Tesla Killer". I'd argue it fell short of those expectation. Especially first Gen which was a car based on their cheapest platform to expedite the speed of which it was released. This was to prove to wall street that they had the expertise to make a product that could meet Tesla's challenge. Given what they have learned over the last 8 or so years, of course the upcoming Bolt will be much better but my point was that the first (and second) gen Bolt was a rush job. In terms of sales I guess it depends on what the expectations were but a Tesla killer it was not.
- ben_w 1y ago
  > Therefore practical vehicles (Prius, Rav4 Hybrid) sell well while cars that might evoke excitement in good times but are poor investments (anything Stellantis makes) are just sitting on dealership lots Stellantis? Surprised they have a bad reputation on cost (or, conversely, a reputation for evoking excitement), but I guess export market is different from domestic. Isn't Dacia part of that group? Seeing a lot with that badge here in Germany these days (even in Brandenburg, which is former DDR and therefore low GDP/capita).
  - nebula8804 1y ago
    >Stellantis? Surprised they have a bad reputation on cost (or, conversely, a reputation for evoking excitement), but I guess export market is different from domestic. Isn't Dacia part of that group? Seeing a lot with that badge here in Germany these days (even in Brandenburg, which is former DDR and therefore low GDP/capita). Oh sorry I was referring to what is sold in the US. When you are not unique in cost, efficiency, reliability, what do you have left? Make something that is cool. If you want to sum up their US lineup in two videos just watch the following lol [1]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IB4qS9Lv5Mo https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IB4qS9Lv5Mo [2]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MI_6FrQDrVw https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MI_6FrQDrVw

AnthonyMouse 1y ago

In general the existing carmakers have a problem with EVs: Dealers make a lot of money on service, and EVs don't need nearly as much service. So dealers don't want to sell EVs. What's likely to happen is one of two things. Either the battery prices continue to come down, in which case EVs will get cheap enough that customers will be demanding them for cost reasons. Or the battery prices don't come down and then people start to realize that the most attractive thing in that environment is a plug-in hybrid, because they can run in full electric mode most of the time but you can put in half as much battery as a full EV and not have any trouble with range. And they can be faster than anything else because they have two power plants. But that's only 95% of the market. The 5% that not only wants a snarling V8 but wants it bad enough to actually buy one? They want something that makes an obnoxious noise, and a fake obnoxious noise isn't going to suit. Which is why nobody is buying this Charger.