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I have the impression, when women have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the society's fault and when men have systemic struggles people tend to be

I have the impression, when women have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the society's fault and when men have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the individual's fault.

notepad0x90 1y ago
You may not be wrong overall, when it comes to systemic issues. The problem men have in this context is systemic and societal. The problem women had historically with inequality and lack of liberties was also systemic and societal. Men not adapting to fairness and equality though, that may be societal but it isn't systemic, as in an issue caused by some social system. It maybe a psychological issue that has reached epidemic levels and maybe it can be addressed systemically, but the cause boils down to individuals not accepting a just and fair outcome. This also applies in other matters like race relations for example. People whom historically have been afforded better opportunities suffer when people from all races are treated fairly. That is what justice looks like. Not having an unfair and unjust entitlement does not translate to suffering from a systemic issue. Accepting just and fair outcomes and adapting to a current reality is a healthy way of adapting. The reason I feel strongly about this is because historically, when groups of people have a social complaint and they feel wronged and their entitlements taken away from them, they tend to turn to violence or some other social harm. They end up implementing injustice at mass scale. For example, regardless of your views on the topic, abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent). Fairness and equality to all members of society is not a systemic issue that needs correction. Failing to obtain a romantic partner of interest is not an unfair situation, for men or for women alike.
- dinfinity 1y ago
  Are unrealistic beauty/physical expectations for girls and women an 'unfair situation', a 'systemic issue'? If you say yes, think about what expectations for men there are and whether those constitute a systemic issue. Hint: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0a/the_666_rule_is_just_asking_for_a_normal_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0... The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found.
  - notepad0x90 1y ago
    No, I don't think those expectations are unfair. People get to set their standards and expectations however they choose, even if what they choose is unrealistic, it is their choice. It may be harmful to them but that's another discussion, how a choice affects a person and how others might find that choice fair or unfair to them are different things entirely. People can expect other people to look exactly like anime characters or plants if they so choose. > The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found. No, that is not the best I can do. the best i can do is refer them to someone equipped to help people like a psychologist, pastor, priest or their own parents even. I did not dismiss their struggle or situation, I am dismissive of their blaming of society or women for their situation. We all have our struggles, blaming others unfairly should not be tolerated. They are hostile and dismissive towards the fact that people get to make choices over their own bodies. The moment they start holding other people or society responsible, then I consider them hostile and anti-social elements instead of humans worthy of care and compassion. So long as they accept other people's rights to make choices that affect them, then their struggles are worthy of societal care and empathy from others. Sorry, no one gets to undermine other people's rights and liberties and then ask for compassion or understanding.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  > abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent) Nope. You can't say "designed" and say "regardless of intent". Pick one. Either they were designed (and therefore done with intent), or not done with intent (and therefore not designed). Perhaps you meant "have the effect" instead of "designed"?
  - notepad0x90 1y ago
    I meant they were designed to degrade liberties of women by law makers, regardless of the intent of the voters and people who supported those laws. Even within the legislature, the people that designed the laws are a smaller subset of those who voted on the laws, that's what I meant by regardless of anyone's intent: regardless of the intent of those who crafted the law (which is bad-faith and malicious intent) or everyone else's intent which I won't presume to know.

I have the impression, when women have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the society's fault and when men have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the individual's fault.

notepad0x90 1y ago

You may not be wrong overall, when it comes to systemic issues. The problem men have in this context is systemic and societal. The problem women had historically with inequality and lack of liberties was also systemic and societal. Men not adapting to fairness and equality though, that may be societal but it isn't systemic, as in an issue caused by some social system. It maybe a psychological issue that has reached epidemic levels and maybe it can be addressed systemically, but the cause boils down to individuals not accepting a just and fair outcome. This also applies in other matters like race relations for example. People whom historically have been afforded better opportunities suffer when people from all races are treated fairly. That is what justice looks like. Not having an unfair and unjust entitlement does not translate to suffering from a systemic issue. Accepting just and fair outcomes and adapting to a current reality is a healthy way of adapting. The reason I feel strongly about this is because historically, when groups of people have a social complaint and they feel wronged and their entitlements taken away from them, they tend to turn to violence or some other social harm. They end up implementing injustice at mass scale. For example, regardless of your views on the topic, abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent). Fairness and equality to all members of society is not a systemic issue that needs correction. Failing to obtain a romantic partner of interest is not an unfair situation, for men or for women alike.

dinfinity 1y ago
Are unrealistic beauty/physical expectations for girls and women an 'unfair situation', a 'systemic issue'? If you say yes, think about what expectations for men there are and whether those constitute a systemic issue. Hint: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0a/the_666_rule_is_just_asking_for_a_normal_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0... The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found.
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  No, I don't think those expectations are unfair. People get to set their standards and expectations however they choose, even if what they choose is unrealistic, it is their choice. It may be harmful to them but that's another discussion, how a choice affects a person and how others might find that choice fair or unfair to them are different things entirely. People can expect other people to look exactly like anime characters or plants if they so choose. > The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found. No, that is not the best I can do. the best i can do is refer them to someone equipped to help people like a psychologist, pastor, priest or their own parents even. I did not dismiss their struggle or situation, I am dismissive of their blaming of society or women for their situation. We all have our struggles, blaming others unfairly should not be tolerated. They are hostile and dismissive towards the fact that people get to make choices over their own bodies. The moment they start holding other people or society responsible, then I consider them hostile and anti-social elements instead of humans worthy of care and compassion. So long as they accept other people's rights to make choices that affect them, then their struggles are worthy of societal care and empathy from others. Sorry, no one gets to undermine other people's rights and liberties and then ask for compassion or understanding.
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
> abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent) Nope. You can't say "designed" and say "regardless of intent". Pick one. Either they were designed (and therefore done with intent), or not done with intent (and therefore not designed). Perhaps you meant "have the effect" instead of "designed"?
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  I meant they were designed to degrade liberties of women by law makers, regardless of the intent of the voters and people who supported those laws. Even within the legislature, the people that designed the laws are a smaller subset of those who voted on the laws, that's what I meant by regardless of anyone's intent: regardless of the intent of those who crafted the law (which is bad-faith and malicious intent) or everyone else's intent which I won't presume to know.