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You know, I'm not convinced "we" should care. People get to choose their romantic partners, and they can set any standards they want. If anyone feels entitled o

You know, I'm not convinced "we" should care. People get to choose their romantic partners, and they can set any standards they want. If anyone feels entitled over other people's sexual choices, they should either seek help or be treated as potential criminals, because that is a very rapey intent. Maybe they just want attention or they're just lonely, which is a very real epidemic. Lots could be said about the state of society, such as lack of the "third space", loneliness capitalism, declining birth rates and more. But people will always get to choose their romantic partners, else it's rape because it is non-consensual. Forming groups over rapey entitled whining is not something that should be "cared about" but treated as harmful and dangerous. There is nothing wrong with not having a romantic partner. and frankly, people need to get along with themselves first before all that. It's very sad that they don't realize there is so much more to life beyond sex and romance. But in the end, society owes individuals nothing when it comes to finding romantic partners. it would benefit society if more people paired up, it's healthier for everyone involved and for society at large. But the strict social law that must be upheld is that individuals either adapt to the preferences of their desired romantic partners or to living a celibate life and all the consequences that come with that. There is no third option that is valid. They're not involuntary celibates, they are voluntarily maladapted. A lot of these people don't see potential romantic partners as people, simple humans like themselves, but as boxes to check or a trophy to win in a game. Whatever the cause or reason is, they feel like if they play by the rules of a certain game, then they are entitled to a romantic partner as a reward. My main point being, society/"we" must take a strong stance against this nonsense and say that we really don't care about people who refuse to get help and are holding hostile and harmful beliefs. They can accept that the world owes them nothing in this regard, they can seek help to arrive at that same conclusion or be treated as dangerous elements of society who should expect hostility not "care" or attention.

flowerthoughts 1y ago
> But in the end, society owes individuals nothing when it comes to finding romantic partners. it would benefit society if more people paired up, it's healthier for everyone involved and for society at large. But the strict social law that must be upheld is that individuals either adapt to the preferences of their desired romantic partners or to living a celibate life and all the consequences that come with that. There is no third option that is valid. They're not involuntary celibates, they are voluntarily maladapted. There's also the practice of having parents/congregation decide on marriage partner. I wonder if some of the would-be incels have traditionally been masked by that. Society (or rather, the economy) has strong reasons to make children happen; stronger than I think you make it out to be. It will find a new way to do match making.
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  I think you have a point, but I like how contemporary arranged marriages are done in Indian culture in the west at least. The children consent into it. Historically, children had no choice in arranged marriage, I don't think that has any place in a society that rejects marital rape. I'm no psychoanalyst, but I suspect how children are raised in their developmental years (<13yo) is the bedrock that is causing adults like this. If a person doesn't learn to have healthy platonic relations with the opposite sex in those years, it leads to complications and problems in personality like this. A lot of people were raised to have societal expectation from a time society was vastly different or they were raised by families that are holding on to those historical times. But modern society no longer requires Women to play their historical role, men simply need to adapt to this reality. I for one am happy for Women, as one would be for their sisters or mothers being liberated and empowered. A person who finds their romantic success to be a higher importance than other people's ability to live a more fair and just life to be sociopathic. That said, society does have it's own issues in that every aspect of it penalizes not having friends, family or romantic partners. Even if someone adapts to celibacy, society won't let them be. But then again, society has a lot of issues that are more important.
alanfranz 1y ago
> If anyone feels entitled over other people's sexual choices, I don’t see how this article is suggesting that. > we really don't care about people who refuse to get help and are holding hostile and harmful Blackpills aren’t hostile or harmful. By the way, if a phenomenon is large enough not to be called off as an individual’s quirk, I think society SHOULD care. Something is possibly wrong. And this has large impact on society itself.
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  > Blackpills aren’t hostile or harmful. If their reasoning boils down to "society owes me something, but since I can't get what I am owed, I will do ______" then I disagree. > By the way, if a phenomenon is large enough not to be called off as an individual’s quirk, I think society SHOULD care. Something is possibly wrong. And this has large impact on society itself. Something is always serious wrong with society, because it comprises of humans. 100 years ago 60%+ of humans in this same society couldn't vote or open up bank accounts. Marital rape was legal. Women's role in society changed because of advancements in medicine , transportation and technology in general. These guys don't want to accept that reality. And I agree with what you said, it is a problem, society shouldn't care about them or this problem, no more than it should with other criminally inclined groups. Gangs are a problem, no one is saying we should care about gangsters, law abiding citizens agree hostility against gangs is a good things. that's how I suggest they be treated. To be clear, I have no hostility against being celibate. the problem is when they add "involuntary" to it, as if they are being coerced. Our default setting is celibate, you have to work to change that condition. Imagine saying I'm "Involuntary non-billionaire" or something like that. That term suggest an implied entitlement, that's why they should be treated with hostility. Plenty of people live their entire lives celibate with devolving into this state.
birn559 1y ago
I have the impression, when women have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the society's fault and when men have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the individual's fault.
- notepad0x90 1y ago
  You may not be wrong overall, when it comes to systemic issues. The problem men have in this context is systemic and societal. The problem women had historically with inequality and lack of liberties was also systemic and societal. Men not adapting to fairness and equality though, that may be societal but it isn't systemic, as in an issue caused by some social system. It maybe a psychological issue that has reached epidemic levels and maybe it can be addressed systemically, but the cause boils down to individuals not accepting a just and fair outcome. This also applies in other matters like race relations for example. People whom historically have been afforded better opportunities suffer when people from all races are treated fairly. That is what justice looks like. Not having an unfair and unjust entitlement does not translate to suffering from a systemic issue. Accepting just and fair outcomes and adapting to a current reality is a healthy way of adapting. The reason I feel strongly about this is because historically, when groups of people have a social complaint and they feel wronged and their entitlements taken away from them, they tend to turn to violence or some other social harm. They end up implementing injustice at mass scale. For example, regardless of your views on the topic, abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent). Fairness and equality to all members of society is not a systemic issue that needs correction. Failing to obtain a romantic partner of interest is not an unfair situation, for men or for women alike.
  - dinfinity 1y ago
    Are unrealistic beauty/physical expectations for girls and women an 'unfair situation', a 'systemic issue'? If you say yes, think about what expectations for men there are and whether those constitute a systemic issue. Hint: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0a/the_666_rule_is_just_asking_for_a_normal_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0... The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found.

flowerthoughts 1y ago

> But in the end, society owes individuals nothing when it comes to finding romantic partners. it would benefit society if more people paired up, it's healthier for everyone involved and for society at large. But the strict social law that must be upheld is that individuals either adapt to the preferences of their desired romantic partners or to living a celibate life and all the consequences that come with that. There is no third option that is valid. They're not involuntary celibates, they are voluntarily maladapted. There's also the practice of having parents/congregation decide on marriage partner. I wonder if some of the would-be incels have traditionally been masked by that. Society (or rather, the economy) has strong reasons to make children happen; stronger than I think you make it out to be. It will find a new way to do match making.

notepad0x90 1y ago
I think you have a point, but I like how contemporary arranged marriages are done in Indian culture in the west at least. The children consent into it. Historically, children had no choice in arranged marriage, I don't think that has any place in a society that rejects marital rape. I'm no psychoanalyst, but I suspect how children are raised in their developmental years (<13yo) is the bedrock that is causing adults like this. If a person doesn't learn to have healthy platonic relations with the opposite sex in those years, it leads to complications and problems in personality like this. A lot of people were raised to have societal expectation from a time society was vastly different or they were raised by families that are holding on to those historical times. But modern society no longer requires Women to play their historical role, men simply need to adapt to this reality. I for one am happy for Women, as one would be for their sisters or mothers being liberated and empowered. A person who finds their romantic success to be a higher importance than other people's ability to live a more fair and just life to be sociopathic. That said, society does have it's own issues in that every aspect of it penalizes not having friends, family or romantic partners. Even if someone adapts to celibacy, society won't let them be. But then again, society has a lot of issues that are more important.

alanfranz 1y ago

> If anyone feels entitled over other people's sexual choices, I don’t see how this article is suggesting that. > we really don't care about people who refuse to get help and are holding hostile and harmful Blackpills aren’t hostile or harmful. By the way, if a phenomenon is large enough not to be called off as an individual’s quirk, I think society SHOULD care. Something is possibly wrong. And this has large impact on society itself.

notepad0x90 1y ago
> Blackpills aren’t hostile or harmful. If their reasoning boils down to "society owes me something, but since I can't get what I am owed, I will do ______" then I disagree. > By the way, if a phenomenon is large enough not to be called off as an individual’s quirk, I think society SHOULD care. Something is possibly wrong. And this has large impact on society itself. Something is always serious wrong with society, because it comprises of humans. 100 years ago 60%+ of humans in this same society couldn't vote or open up bank accounts. Marital rape was legal. Women's role in society changed because of advancements in medicine , transportation and technology in general. These guys don't want to accept that reality. And I agree with what you said, it is a problem, society shouldn't care about them or this problem, no more than it should with other criminally inclined groups. Gangs are a problem, no one is saying we should care about gangsters, law abiding citizens agree hostility against gangs is a good things. that's how I suggest they be treated. To be clear, I have no hostility against being celibate. the problem is when they add "involuntary" to it, as if they are being coerced. Our default setting is celibate, you have to work to change that condition. Imagine saying I'm "Involuntary non-billionaire" or something like that. That term suggest an implied entitlement, that's why they should be treated with hostility. Plenty of people live their entire lives celibate with devolving into this state.

birn559 1y ago

I have the impression, when women have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the society's fault and when men have systemic struggles people tend to believe it's the individual's fault.

notepad0x90 1y ago
You may not be wrong overall, when it comes to systemic issues. The problem men have in this context is systemic and societal. The problem women had historically with inequality and lack of liberties was also systemic and societal. Men not adapting to fairness and equality though, that may be societal but it isn't systemic, as in an issue caused by some social system. It maybe a psychological issue that has reached epidemic levels and maybe it can be addressed systemically, but the cause boils down to individuals not accepting a just and fair outcome. This also applies in other matters like race relations for example. People whom historically have been afforded better opportunities suffer when people from all races are treated fairly. That is what justice looks like. Not having an unfair and unjust entitlement does not translate to suffering from a systemic issue. Accepting just and fair outcomes and adapting to a current reality is a healthy way of adapting. The reason I feel strongly about this is because historically, when groups of people have a social complaint and they feel wronged and their entitlements taken away from them, they tend to turn to violence or some other social harm. They end up implementing injustice at mass scale. For example, regardless of your views on the topic, abortion laws in America today are designed to degrade liberties of women (regardless of anyone's intent). Fairness and equality to all members of society is not a systemic issue that needs correction. Failing to obtain a romantic partner of interest is not an unfair situation, for men or for women alike.
- dinfinity 1y ago
  Are unrealistic beauty/physical expectations for girls and women an 'unfair situation', a 'systemic issue'? If you say yes, think about what expectations for men there are and whether those constitute a systemic issue. Hint: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0a/the_666_rule_is_just_asking_for_a_normal_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ma8h0... The best thing you can do is actually listen to the things the boys and men say about why they are depressed, feel disadvantaged, etc. instead of just dismissing them and saying they just have to learn how to deal with it. There really is quite a lot of truth in there to be found.