4 ms·

What you wrote is indeed a data race, it'll race s, but you mention the semantics of the JRE and I wonder if you actually know what those are because that's cru

What you wrote is indeed a data race, it'll race s, but you mention the semantics of the JRE and I wonder if you actually know what those are because that's crucial here. You see Java has a specific memory ordering model (many languages just give you a big shrug, including C before it adopted the C++ 11 model but Java spells out what happens) and that model is very sophisticated so it has an answer to what happens here. Because we raced s, we lose Sequential Consistency. This means in general (this example is so trivial it won't matter) humans struggle to understand what's going on in their program, which makes debugging and other software engineering impractical. But, unlike C++ loss of Sequential Consistency isn't fatal in Java, instead we're promised that when s is observed in the main thread it will either be that initial "uninitialized" string or it will have the args[0] value, ie the name of the program because these are the only two values it could have and Java does not specify which of them observed in this case. You could think of this as "atomic access" and that's likely the actual implementation in this case, but the Java specification only promises what I wrote. In C++ this is game over, the language standard specifically says it is Undefined Behaviour to have any data race and so the behaviour of your program is outside the standard - anything at all might happen. [Edited: I neglected originally to observe that s is set to "uninitialized", and instead I assumed it begins as null]

dataflow 1y ago
> But, unlike C++ loss of Sequential Consistency isn't fatal in Java I have no idea what you mean here. Loss of sequential consistency is in no way fatal in C++. There are several access modes that are specifically designed to avoid sequential consistency. Regarding the rest of your comment: You're making exactly my point though. These are guaranteed atomic accesses -- and like you said, we are guaranteed to see either the old or new value, and nothing else -- and yet they are still data races. Anyone who agrees this is a data race despite the atomicity must necessarily understand that atomics don't imply lack of data races -- not in general CS terminology. The only way it's correct to say they are mutually exclusive is when you define "data race" as they did in the C++ standard, to imply a non-atomic access. Which you're welcome to do, but it's an incredibly pedantic thing to do because, for probably >95% of the users of C++ (and probably even of TSAN itself), when they read "data race", they assume it to mean the concept they understand from CS. They don't know that the ISO standard defines it in its own peculiar way. My point here was to convey something to normal people rather than C++ committee language lawyers, hence the use of the general term.
- Maxatar 1y ago
  >The only way it's correct to say they are mutually exclusive is when you define "data race" as they did in the C++ standard, to imply a non-atomic access. A data-race does not imply a non-atomic operation, it implies an unsynchronized operation. Different languages have different requirements for what constitutes a synchronized operation, for example in Python all reads and writes are synchronized, in Java synchronization is generally accomplished through the use of a monitor or a volatile operation, and in C++ synchronization is generally accomplished through the use of std::atomic operations. The fact that in C++ atomic operations result in synchronization, while in Java atomic operations are not sufficient for synchronization is not some kind of language lawyering or pedantry, it's because Java makes stronger guarantees about the consequences of a data race versus C++ where a data race can result in any arbitrary behavior whatsoever. As such it should not come as a surprise that the cost of those stronger guarantees is that Java has stronger requirements for data race free programs. But of course this is mostly a deflection, since the discussion was about the use of TSAN, which is a data race detector for C and C++, not for Java. Hence to the extent that TSAN detects data races, it detects them with respect to C and C++'s memory model, not Java's memory model or Python's memory model, or any other memory model. The objection I originally laid out was your example of a race condition, an example which can happen even in the absence of parallelism (ie. a single-core CPU) and even in the absence of multithreaded code altogether (your example can happen in a single threaded application with the use of coroutines). TSAN makes no claim with regards to detecting race conditions in general, it only seeks to detect data races and data races as they pertain the C and C++ memory models.
  - dataflow 1y ago
    I am not "deflecting" anything, I am going to the heart of the matter. Let me lay this out very explicitly. This comment will likely be my final one on the matter as this back-and-forth is getting quite tiresome, and I'm not enjoying it, especially with the swipes directed at me. Please take a look at the following two C++ and Java programs: https://godbolt.org/z/EjWWac1bG https://godbolt.org/z/EjWWac1bG For the sake of this discussion, assume the command-line arguments behave the same in both languages. (i.e. ignore the C++ argv[0] vs. Java args[0] distinction and whatnot.) Somehow, you simultaneously believe (a) that Java program contains data races, while believing (b) the C++ program does not. This is a self-contradictory position. The programs are well-defined, direct translations of each other. They are equivalent in everything but syntax. If one contains a data race, so must the other. If one does not, then neither can the other. This implies that TSAN does not detect "data races" as it is usually understood in the CS field -- it does not detect anything in the C++ program. What TSAN detects is only a particular, distinct situation that the C++ standard also happens to call a "data race". So if you're talking to a C++ language lawyer, you can say TSAN detects all data races within its window/buffer limits. But if you're talking to someone who doesn't sleep with the C++ standard under their pillow, they're not going to realize C++ is using a language-specific definition, and they're going to assume it flags programs like the equivalent of the Java program above, which has a data race but whose equivalent TSAN would absolutely not flag.

dataflow 1y ago

> But, unlike C++ loss of Sequential Consistency isn't fatal in Java I have no idea what you mean here. Loss of sequential consistency is in no way fatal in C++. There are several access modes that are specifically designed to avoid sequential consistency. Regarding the rest of your comment: You're making exactly my point though. These are guaranteed atomic accesses -- and like you said, we are guaranteed to see either the old or new value, and nothing else -- and yet they are still data races. Anyone who agrees this is a data race despite the atomicity must necessarily understand that atomics don't imply lack of data races -- not in general CS terminology. The only way it's correct to say they are mutually exclusive is when you define "data race" as they did in the C++ standard, to imply a non-atomic access. Which you're welcome to do, but it's an incredibly pedantic thing to do because, for probably >95% of the users of C++ (and probably even of TSAN itself), when they read "data race", they assume it to mean the concept they understand from CS. They don't know that the ISO standard defines it in its own peculiar way. My point here was to convey something to normal people rather than C++ committee language lawyers, hence the use of the general term.

Maxatar 1y ago
>The only way it's correct to say they are mutually exclusive is when you define "data race" as they did in the C++ standard, to imply a non-atomic access. A data-race does not imply a non-atomic operation, it implies an unsynchronized operation. Different languages have different requirements for what constitutes a synchronized operation, for example in Python all reads and writes are synchronized, in Java synchronization is generally accomplished through the use of a monitor or a volatile operation, and in C++ synchronization is generally accomplished through the use of std::atomic operations. The fact that in C++ atomic operations result in synchronization, while in Java atomic operations are not sufficient for synchronization is not some kind of language lawyering or pedantry, it's because Java makes stronger guarantees about the consequences of a data race versus C++ where a data race can result in any arbitrary behavior whatsoever. As such it should not come as a surprise that the cost of those stronger guarantees is that Java has stronger requirements for data race free programs. But of course this is mostly a deflection, since the discussion was about the use of TSAN, which is a data race detector for C and C++, not for Java. Hence to the extent that TSAN detects data races, it detects them with respect to C and C++'s memory model, not Java's memory model or Python's memory model, or any other memory model. The objection I originally laid out was your example of a race condition, an example which can happen even in the absence of parallelism (ie. a single-core CPU) and even in the absence of multithreaded code altogether (your example can happen in a single threaded application with the use of coroutines). TSAN makes no claim with regards to detecting race conditions in general, it only seeks to detect data races and data races as they pertain the C and C++ memory models.
- dataflow 1y ago
  I am not "deflecting" anything, I am going to the heart of the matter. Let me lay this out very explicitly. This comment will likely be my final one on the matter as this back-and-forth is getting quite tiresome, and I'm not enjoying it, especially with the swipes directed at me. Please take a look at the following two C++ and Java programs: https://godbolt.org/z/EjWWac1bG https://godbolt.org/z/EjWWac1bG For the sake of this discussion, assume the command-line arguments behave the same in both languages. (i.e. ignore the C++ argv[0] vs. Java args[0] distinction and whatnot.) Somehow, you simultaneously believe (a) that Java program contains data races, while believing (b) the C++ program does not. This is a self-contradictory position. The programs are well-defined, direct translations of each other. They are equivalent in everything but syntax. If one contains a data race, so must the other. If one does not, then neither can the other. This implies that TSAN does not detect "data races" as it is usually understood in the CS field -- it does not detect anything in the C++ program. What TSAN detects is only a particular, distinct situation that the C++ standard also happens to call a "data race". So if you're talking to a C++ language lawyer, you can say TSAN detects all data races within its window/buffer limits. But if you're talking to someone who doesn't sleep with the C++ standard under their pillow, they're not going to realize C++ is using a language-specific definition, and they're going to assume it flags programs like the equivalent of the Java program above, which has a data race but whose equivalent TSAN would absolutely not flag.