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The irony now is that 120k is basically minimum wage for major metros (and in most cases that excludes home ownership). Of course, that growth in wages in this
by nyarlathotep_ 1y ago
The irony now is that 120k is basically minimum wage for major metros (and in most cases that excludes home ownership).
Of course, that growth in wages in this sector was a contributing factor to home/rental price increases as the "market" could bear higher prices.
- alephnerd 1y agoCoL in London or Dublin is comparable to much of the US, but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range. The issue is salary expectations in the US are much higher than those in much of Western Europe despite having similar CoL. And $120k for a new grad is only a tech specific thing. Even new grad management consultants earn $80-100k base, and lower for other non-software roles and industries.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago>but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range But in UK an Ireland they get free healthcare, paid vacation, sick leave and labor protections, no?
- alephnerd 1y agoThe labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role), and the free healthcare portion gets paid out of employer's pockets via taxes so it comes out the same as a $70-80k base (and associated taxes) would in much of the US. There's a reason you don't see new grad hiring in France (where they actually try to enforce work hours), and they have a subsequently high youth unemployment rate. Though even these new grad roles are at risk to move to CEE, where their administrations are giving massive tax holidays on the tune of $10-20k per employee if you invest enough. And the skills gap I mentioned about CS in the US exists in Weatern Europe as well. CEE, Israel, and India are the only large tech hubs that still treat CS as an engineering disciple instead of as only a form of applied math.
- 0xpgm 1y agoWhat is the difference between treating CS as an engineering discipline vs a branch of applied math?
- kilpikaarna 1y ago(According to this guy apparently) low level vs algorithms focus. CE or CS basically.
- lazyasciiart 1y ago> The labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role), I happen to have a sibling in consulting who was seconded from London to New York for a year, doing the same work for the same company, and she found the work hours in NY to be ludicrously long (and not for a significant productivity gain: more required time-at-desk). So there are varying levels of "expected to work off the clock hours".
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- __turbobrew__ 1y ago> free healthcare I pay over 40% effective tax rate. Healthcare is far from free.
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoBut your health problems won't bankrupt you or make you homeless I presume.
- GoatInGrey 1y agoThe vast majority of Americans, who carry health insurance, also will not be bankrupted by health problems. Though they will earn far greater amounts of money for their families by working in the US compared to the UK.
- ponector 1y agoI've seen recently an open position for senior dev with 60k salary and hybrid 3 days per week in London. Insane!
- alephnerd 1y agoYep. And costs are truly insane in Greater London. Bay Area level housing prices and Boston level goods prices, but Mississippi or Alabama level salaries. But that's my point - salaries are factored based on labor market demands and comparative performance of your macroeconomy (UK high finance and law salaries are comparable with the US), not CoL.
- zelphirkalt 1y agoI mean, seeing an open position does not equal that position ever being filled. It can also likely be a fake position, trying to create the "we are growing and hiring!" impression, or mandated by law to be there, but made artificially worse, because they have someone internally, that they want to move to the position.
- rcpt 1y agoMaybe the EU is different but in the US there's no software engineering union. Our wages are purely what the market dictates. Think they're too high? You're free to start a company and pay less.
- rekenaut 1y agoI feel that saying "120k is basically minimum wage for major metros" is absurd. As of 2022, there are only three metro areas in the US that have a per capita income greater than $120,000 [1] (Bay Area and Southwest Connecticut). Anywhere else in the US, 120k is doing pretty well for yourself, compared to the rest of the population. The average American working full time earns $60k [2]. I'm sure it's not a comfortable wage in some places, but "basically minimum wage" just seems ignorant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas_by_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropol... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
- lamename 1y agoI disagree. Your data doesnt make the grandparent's assertion false. Cost of living != per capita or median income. Factoring in sensible retirement, expensive housing, inflation, etc, I think the $120k figure may not be perfect, but is close enough to reality.
- BlueTemplar 1y agoSince when "minimum wage" means "sensible retirement" ? More like it means ending up with government-provided bare minimum handouts to not have you starve (assuming you somehow manage to stay on minimum wage all your life).
- bravesoul2 1y agoYeah 120k is the maximum I have earned over 20 years in the industry. I started off circa. 40k maybe that's 70k adj for inflation. Not in US.
- lostlogin 1y agoIt’s always going to be difficult to compare countries. Things like healthcare, housing, childcare, schooling, taxes and literally every single thing are going to differ.
- bravesoul2 1y agoThe arbitrage is when you are young and healthy get that US salary and save then retreat home in your 40s and 50s. Stay healthy of course.
- adaptbrian 1y agoLots of tech folks get burnt out without knowing it. If you're tired all the time drastically alter your diet, it could change your life for the better.
- foobiekr 1y agoTo what?