5 ms·

I agree with the post, if the genders were reversed, people wouldn't generally feel this open about it.

SiempreViernes 1y ago
That's because the genders aren't valued equally by society, so they don't permute. Once gender equality is established they could switched and the statements would be equivalent.
- steveBK123 1y ago
  I dunno, generationally we may be correcting a problem that will soon no longer exist, or even invert. Women are attending and graduating college in higher numbers than men in GenZ. Much of the man-o-sphere GenZ rightward turn seems to be resentment at society being sure what the use of men is anymore. That is, from a very young age girls are told they can do/be whatever they want. Often now, boys are described in terms of what they can't/shouldn't be, or in how their very gender gives them a sort of ancestral debt of shame for wrongs done by the men of previous generations. You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" and stupid stuff that's unthinkable if it was reversed. Men by and large are still expected by society to be the provider, and shamed if they aren't. Women generally won't "date/marry down" anymore than they ever did. But women are now achieving higher educational attainment than men. It's a setup for future societal disfunction, so I do think we do need to solve the male part of the equation after spending the last 50 years raising women up.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - HankStallone 1y ago
    Yes, I know parents who wonder why the boys at school seem to have no ambition, and don't apply for scholarships and get involved in things as much as they used to. The same parents also notice that all the literature at school now has female protagonists--not half of it, but nearly all of it. They don't seem to make the connection between these things. Boys at school are told to sit down and shut up (and take drugs to do so if necessary) so the girls can thrive, and they internalize that. Some people act as though this is reparations for the many years when the reverse was true. But even if they're right about the past, they're not improving the situation by swapping the injustice.
    - steveBK123 1y ago
      People have a hard time reconciling the difference between “raise group X up” and “knock group Y down”. The former is a universal good and the correct way to remedy historical injustice. The latter is punishing people, literally, for the sins of their fathers. There is of course complexity and some zero sum situations where raising X harms Y, but most of the world is not zero sum and you do not have to start from that default position.
      - aaronbaugher 1y ago
        True. I suppose the problem is that knocking down Y is often easier than raising up X. And group revenge can feel good.
        steveBK123 1y ago
        Indeed, it is a dysfunction of our political system that the most politically engaged & active on each side .. rarely touches grass.
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    >You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" and stupid stuff that's unthinkable if it was reversed. People are bashing their heads on the wall trying to figure out why young white men are moving towards the right in droves...and the best answer they can come up with is misogyny.
    - tayo42 1y ago
      You don't think it could be becasue life is just hard and someone is providing an easy scapegoat for their own problems?
      - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        My son was the gentlest soul. He did city year to help inner city youth with their schooling. He has a very liberal sexuality. He loves and accepts everyone. He has gone over to the dark side and I am heartbroken. The final straw was he built up a business from scratch, with the laid out plan that if he got it running and was successful he would run it. Once it was all successfully running the promise was broken and he was passed up because he was a white male (this was explicitly the reason. The business was in a high minority area and they felt it would look bad having a non-local white man running things as the product's identity was in part it's location). He dedicated years of his life sacrificing building a career somewhere else getting this off the ground and an explicit promise that was broken purely because of his skin color/gender once his usefulness/startup level effort and dedication had made the business successful enough that they could replace him. After having to move cross country back home to restart his life purely because he was a white male (and in spite of him having been successful at building the business) he very much sees the world as white males versus the left that hates/betrays him. Remember this kid gave up a year to do city year to help raise disadvantaged minority youth up (and did many, many other things before deciding things were rigged against him). He is not scapegoating anyone, and that you judge someone's view of the world being a character flaw on their part instantly instead of trying to have any empathy, is fucking gross to be honest. Do you think people with your opinion are being intentionally obtuse out of some sort of racism on their part (they feel uncomfortable with empathy for white males), or because they just lack empathy? My last statement is as valid as your sentence above and as helpful/insightful are yours (which is zero).
  - reverendsteveii 1y ago
    >You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" I've never heard anyone say that happened but I've heard plenty of people say that they heard someone say that happened. I think it goes in the same file as "Litter boxes in classrooms so that furries can poop in front of everyone" and "It's illegal to be Christian in schools now".
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    > I do think we do need to solve the male part of the equation after spending the last 50 years raising women up. When left-wing progressives talk about dismantling...let's just call it the "p-word", dismantling the expectations about what a man should and shouldn't be is very much part of that. The system victimizes men as much as women, and we should be tearing that system down, not leaning back into it in a misguided attempt of trying to rebalance the scales.
    - boppo1 1y ago
      [flagged]
- ravenstine 1y ago
  Human beings will never be so fungible.
- boppo1 1y ago
  >Once gender equality is established Lol if you don't think it has been already, you never will.

That's because the genders aren't valued equally by society, so they don't permute. Once gender equality is established they could switched and the statements would be equivalent.

steveBK123 1y ago
I dunno, generationally we may be correcting a problem that will soon no longer exist, or even invert. Women are attending and graduating college in higher numbers than men in GenZ. Much of the man-o-sphere GenZ rightward turn seems to be resentment at society being sure what the use of men is anymore. That is, from a very young age girls are told they can do/be whatever they want. Often now, boys are described in terms of what they can't/shouldn't be, or in how their very gender gives them a sort of ancestral debt of shame for wrongs done by the men of previous generations. You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" and stupid stuff that's unthinkable if it was reversed. Men by and large are still expected by society to be the provider, and shamed if they aren't. Women generally won't "date/marry down" anymore than they ever did. But women are now achieving higher educational attainment than men. It's a setup for future societal disfunction, so I do think we do need to solve the male part of the equation after spending the last 50 years raising women up.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- HankStallone 1y ago
  Yes, I know parents who wonder why the boys at school seem to have no ambition, and don't apply for scholarships and get involved in things as much as they used to. The same parents also notice that all the literature at school now has female protagonists--not half of it, but nearly all of it. They don't seem to make the connection between these things. Boys at school are told to sit down and shut up (and take drugs to do so if necessary) so the girls can thrive, and they internalize that. Some people act as though this is reparations for the many years when the reverse was true. But even if they're right about the past, they're not improving the situation by swapping the injustice.
  - steveBK123 1y ago
    People have a hard time reconciling the difference between “raise group X up” and “knock group Y down”. The former is a universal good and the correct way to remedy historical injustice. The latter is punishing people, literally, for the sins of their fathers. There is of course complexity and some zero sum situations where raising X harms Y, but most of the world is not zero sum and you do not have to start from that default position.
    - aaronbaugher 1y ago
      True. I suppose the problem is that knocking down Y is often easier than raising up X. And group revenge can feel good.
      - steveBK123 1y ago
        Indeed, it is a dysfunction of our political system that the most politically engaged & active on each side .. rarely touches grass.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  >You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" and stupid stuff that's unthinkable if it was reversed. People are bashing their heads on the wall trying to figure out why young white men are moving towards the right in droves...and the best answer they can come up with is misogyny.
  - tayo42 1y ago
    You don't think it could be becasue life is just hard and someone is providing an easy scapegoat for their own problems?
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      My son was the gentlest soul. He did city year to help inner city youth with their schooling. He has a very liberal sexuality. He loves and accepts everyone. He has gone over to the dark side and I am heartbroken. The final straw was he built up a business from scratch, with the laid out plan that if he got it running and was successful he would run it. Once it was all successfully running the promise was broken and he was passed up because he was a white male (this was explicitly the reason. The business was in a high minority area and they felt it would look bad having a non-local white man running things as the product's identity was in part it's location). He dedicated years of his life sacrificing building a career somewhere else getting this off the ground and an explicit promise that was broken purely because of his skin color/gender once his usefulness/startup level effort and dedication had made the business successful enough that they could replace him. After having to move cross country back home to restart his life purely because he was a white male (and in spite of him having been successful at building the business) he very much sees the world as white males versus the left that hates/betrays him. Remember this kid gave up a year to do city year to help raise disadvantaged minority youth up (and did many, many other things before deciding things were rigged against him). He is not scapegoating anyone, and that you judge someone's view of the world being a character flaw on their part instantly instead of trying to have any empathy, is fucking gross to be honest. Do you think people with your opinion are being intentionally obtuse out of some sort of racism on their part (they feel uncomfortable with empathy for white males), or because they just lack empathy? My last statement is as valid as your sentence above and as helpful/insightful are yours (which is zero).
- reverendsteveii 1y ago
  >You'll hear left wing progressive parents in places like NYC tell stories like "my 8 year old boy came home from school crying because his teacher told hime everything bad that has happened in history was because of men" I've never heard anyone say that happened but I've heard plenty of people say that they heard someone say that happened. I think it goes in the same file as "Litter boxes in classrooms so that furries can poop in front of everyone" and "It's illegal to be Christian in schools now".
- LexiMax 1y ago
  > I do think we do need to solve the male part of the equation after spending the last 50 years raising women up. When left-wing progressives talk about dismantling...let's just call it the "p-word", dismantling the expectations about what a man should and shouldn't be is very much part of that. The system victimizes men as much as women, and we should be tearing that system down, not leaning back into it in a misguided attempt of trying to rebalance the scales.
  - boppo1 1y ago
    [flagged]
ravenstine 1y ago
Human beings will never be so fungible.
boppo1 1y ago
>Once gender equality is established Lol if you don't think it has been already, you never will.