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The men are there to meet each other, not to avoid women. Gender segregation isn't the point - it's about building relationships.

JimDabell 1y ago
They had to be persistently pressured into letting women in, and when that happened they set aside a men-only room to escape to. Gender segregation may not be the point but it seems like it’s important to them.
philipallstar 1y ago
> The men are there to meet each other, not to avoid women. Gender segregation isn't the point - it's about building relationships. I'm not sure that's quite true. Men tend to talk and joke in a different way to women, which they then modify around women or be punished. The main difference between an old-school Personnel department and a modern HR department is HR is (self-)tasked with making sure the environment is always suitable for women. Men have very few places, if any, where they can just be themselves, unmodified. And when those places exist, large shaming campaigns and marketing appear to tell them off and to entice women into them.
- emptyfile 1y ago
  [dead]
- kgwxd 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Surely you see the irony in advocating for "just man up and comply"? Imagine how this comment would come across if applied along any other demographic axis.
    - meheleventyone 1y ago
      I can't imagine many other demographics saying they need a safe space to be offensive to the other axis.
      - blargey 1y ago
        Many men and women socialize differently in mono-gender groups, for a wide variety of reasons, and reducing that to “being offensive to the other axis” is…well, reductive flamebait.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    That's the attitude that gets you in trouble with HR in corporate America.
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  No one is ever themselves, unmodified, when around other people. There are jokes and attitudes that are unacceptable in stereotypical masculine social situations too (having a feminine interest, for example, or simply speaking in the wrong way). The Overton Window moves. It narrows and widens. That isn't the same as being unable to be yourself. I agree that men should be socially allowed to have spaces where women are excluded and society does sort of tend to look down on that kind of thing, but I also think that in a world where many professional environments are still male dominated some sensitivity to the exclusion of women is warranted. I mean plenty of jobs out there are still 95% or more occupied by men only.
  - belorn 1y ago
    Sweden has a government department for statistics and one data point they collect and publish is work statistics. The most gender segregated work places are dominated by women, with a few being around 99%. The only male dominated profession in top 5, last time I checked, was stonelayer, which was around 95%. In term of total gender segreation in the work force, about 15% of men and women work in gender equal profession. The majority, both men and women, work in a job where their gender outnumber the other gender by 2 to 1 or more. A common finding in studies conduced on this statistics is that gender segregation occurs also within a profession. Teachers is used as the typical example where gender segregation occur on both subject but also on level. It also get worse as people advance in their careers, with each "step" on the ladder being a point where the minority gender decrease.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    > No one is ever themselves, unmodified, when around other people I see what you mean. To clarify: I meant as a group, rather than as individuals. I appreciate there are smaller-groups that also can't be themselves somehow, but if that's a sin, then perhaps the larger group not being able to be itself is a larger sin.
- geocar 1y ago
  [flagged]
wvh 1y ago
Don't disagree, but some hard things don't get said when the other gender is around, especially with men of a certain age. It takes a lot for many men to even out loud say the word "lonely" or "sad" or "worthless". A lot of male conversation is silent. The whole spiel is to project and feel capable of dealing with the world, to feel useful, to be a Man. To feel otherwise is not "masculine". To admit this to mixed company is a couple of bridges too far for most of us.
- SiempreViernes 1y ago
  Funny, because the traditional role of a women is exactly to be the one who hears all these hard things and helps the man overcome them. Extra funny hat women should be excluded so men can talk about feeling lonely and how they wish they had a woman.
  - christophilus 1y ago
    It’s not complicated. Men need women. But men need men, too. The needs are distinct and not interchangeable.
    - SiempreViernes 1y ago
      Fine, but why do you list two needs with enormous female gendered baggage in that case?
      - c22 1y ago
        Perhaps the baggage is a projection based on your own experiences?
        SiempreViernes 1y ago
        [dead]
  - Moomoomoo309 1y ago
    It only takes one time: a woman who sees a man as less than for admitting his weakness makes him never talk about that stuff around women again. Unfortunately, there are many women who react this way, so the cycle continues. I don't necessarily blame women for this, it's more about the social expectations for men, the moment they violate that expectation and are "punished" for it, they follow it to the letter, because they then know what happens if they don't.
xandrius 1y ago
Then why women segregate themselves in groups? I'm not saying I'm pro gender segregation but if women can have their own gender segregated groups, why men should be treated differently?
- SiempreViernes 1y ago
  Both genders segregate themselves into groups on occasion, as the quotes explicitly highlight.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

JimDabell 1y ago

They had to be persistently pressured into letting women in, and when that happened they set aside a men-only room to escape to. Gender segregation may not be the point but it seems like it’s important to them.

philipallstar 1y ago

> The men are there to meet each other, not to avoid women. Gender segregation isn't the point - it's about building relationships. I'm not sure that's quite true. Men tend to talk and joke in a different way to women, which they then modify around women or be punished. The main difference between an old-school Personnel department and a modern HR department is HR is (self-)tasked with making sure the environment is always suitable for women. Men have very few places, if any, where they can just be themselves, unmodified. And when those places exist, large shaming campaigns and marketing appear to tell them off and to entice women into them.

emptyfile 1y ago
[dead]
kgwxd 1y ago
[flagged]
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Surely you see the irony in advocating for "just man up and comply"? Imagine how this comment would come across if applied along any other demographic axis.
  - meheleventyone 1y ago
    I can't imagine many other demographics saying they need a safe space to be offensive to the other axis.
    - blargey 1y ago
      Many men and women socialize differently in mono-gender groups, for a wide variety of reasons, and reducing that to “being offensive to the other axis” is…well, reductive flamebait.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  That's the attitude that gets you in trouble with HR in corporate America.
nathan_compton 1y ago
No one is ever themselves, unmodified, when around other people. There are jokes and attitudes that are unacceptable in stereotypical masculine social situations too (having a feminine interest, for example, or simply speaking in the wrong way). The Overton Window moves. It narrows and widens. That isn't the same as being unable to be yourself. I agree that men should be socially allowed to have spaces where women are excluded and society does sort of tend to look down on that kind of thing, but I also think that in a world where many professional environments are still male dominated some sensitivity to the exclusion of women is warranted. I mean plenty of jobs out there are still 95% or more occupied by men only.
- belorn 1y ago
  Sweden has a government department for statistics and one data point they collect and publish is work statistics. The most gender segregated work places are dominated by women, with a few being around 99%. The only male dominated profession in top 5, last time I checked, was stonelayer, which was around 95%. In term of total gender segreation in the work force, about 15% of men and women work in gender equal profession. The majority, both men and women, work in a job where their gender outnumber the other gender by 2 to 1 or more. A common finding in studies conduced on this statistics is that gender segregation occurs also within a profession. Teachers is used as the typical example where gender segregation occur on both subject but also on level. It also get worse as people advance in their careers, with each "step" on the ladder being a point where the minority gender decrease.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  > No one is ever themselves, unmodified, when around other people I see what you mean. To clarify: I meant as a group, rather than as individuals. I appreciate there are smaller-groups that also can't be themselves somehow, but if that's a sin, then perhaps the larger group not being able to be itself is a larger sin.
geocar 1y ago
[flagged]

wvh 1y ago

Don't disagree, but some hard things don't get said when the other gender is around, especially with men of a certain age. It takes a lot for many men to even out loud say the word "lonely" or "sad" or "worthless". A lot of male conversation is silent. The whole spiel is to project and feel capable of dealing with the world, to feel useful, to be a Man. To feel otherwise is not "masculine". To admit this to mixed company is a couple of bridges too far for most of us.

SiempreViernes 1y ago
Funny, because the traditional role of a women is exactly to be the one who hears all these hard things and helps the man overcome them. Extra funny hat women should be excluded so men can talk about feeling lonely and how they wish they had a woman.
- christophilus 1y ago
  It’s not complicated. Men need women. But men need men, too. The needs are distinct and not interchangeable.
  - SiempreViernes 1y ago
    Fine, but why do you list two needs with enormous female gendered baggage in that case?
    - c22 1y ago
      Perhaps the baggage is a projection based on your own experiences?
      - SiempreViernes 1y ago
        [dead]
- Moomoomoo309 1y ago
  It only takes one time: a woman who sees a man as less than for admitting his weakness makes him never talk about that stuff around women again. Unfortunately, there are many women who react this way, so the cycle continues. I don't necessarily blame women for this, it's more about the social expectations for men, the moment they violate that expectation and are "punished" for it, they follow it to the letter, because they then know what happens if they don't.

xandrius 1y ago

Then why women segregate themselves in groups? I'm not saying I'm pro gender segregation but if women can have their own gender segregated groups, why men should be treated differently?

SiempreViernes 1y ago
Both genders segregate themselves into groups on occasion, as the quotes explicitly highlight.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]