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That was a great little read. Whenever I try to explain to my developer friends why my job is important, I'm usually shrugged off rudely. This guy gets it, expe

That was a great little read. Whenever I try to explain to my developer friends why my job is important, I'm usually shrugged off rudely. This guy gets it, experience is the only way to learn WHY marketing is so essential. My humble request to developers: Stop being dismissive of marketers, they are an essential part of the equation.

debacle 14y ago
I think it's a culture thing. There are good marketers and there are terrible marketers. In programming, there is a culture of calling people out for their bullshit. In most other business cultures, it's a bit less belligerent.
- Nowyouknow 14y ago
  Yeah, it's tough for marketers in a different sense. Good marketing it pervasive, but no in your face and blatant. When a marketer is doing a good job, that "work" is not readily apparent because it could have been as simple as having the right conversation at the right time. My daily struggle is to quantify my accomplishments, it really is too easy to dismiss the "marketing guy".
- jonnathanson 14y ago
  "In programming, there is a culture of calling people out for their bullshit. In most other business cultures, it's a bit less belligerent." Marketing can be every bit as confrontational, but it's usually more passive aggressive. You'll rarely get called out in a meeting, but you'll get outmaneuvered or back-channeled after the meeting is over. The field is incredibly political. When I worked in marketing, I felt like I was a character in "Game of Thrones." The constant alliances, shifts, backstabbings, feints, etc., were exhausting. Obviously, a great deal of this depends on company culture. But as general disciplines, marketing and sales seem to attract political types. Given the choice between the two styles of confrontation, I'd much rather have it out in the room, all agendas laid bare on the table, than have to play GoT every day. But that's just a personal preference.
  - Nowyouknow 14y ago
    ENTIRELY dependent on company culture and this goes back to the lack of performance measurement for marketers. Everyone involved in the process is looking over their shoulders. If a company values marketing and gives their marketers "free reign" as it were, all is right in the world. When marketers are micromanaged, that Game of Thrones comparison is spot on. The passive aggressiveness in the industry is suffocating.
    - jonnathanson 14y ago
      The problem isn't so much that marketers don't have concrete and measurable KPIs. They do. But at many companies, marketers affect those KPIs only indirectly. For instance, if you work in marketing for a B2B sales-driven company, it's very hard for the marketers to quantify their performance (whereas it's fairly easy for the salespeople to do so, even if some credit deserves to be shared). Similarly, if you're working in marketing for a retailer, the buyers or operations people will be able to measure sales, profit margins, operational efficiency, etc. Marketing may have a huge impact on several of those metrics, but the marketer doesn't have his or her hand on the lever as directly as the buyer does. Etc. The problem with the discipline of marketing is that it's often a complementary discipline. It's sort of like the Steve Nash or Magic Johnson of company operations: if it's performing well, it's enhancing the performance of everyone else on the team. In certain industries, by contrast, marketing rules the roost. The consumer packaged goods (CPG) business, for instance, is directed by marketing. A marketer at a CPG firm, known commonly as a Brand Manager, is exactly that: he or she is running almost every aspect of a major brand. Accordingly, the performance of brand managers is (relatively) easy to measure. You've got sales, margins, market share, etc., and all of them tie fairly directly to your business decisions. Brand management is akin to general management, and many brand managers would argue that what they do is full-spectrum marketing; everyone in marketing in other industries is just performing a subset of what the brand manager does.
      - RobSpectre 14y ago
        Really like this analogy. I'm coming around to the metaphor that engineering is the fire and marketing is the gasoline. Still not sure if it applies universally, but generally acknowledge it can be the catalyst for a great product to get widespread adoption.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  Often there is a culture of one-upmanship, which is subtly different.
caseysoftware 14y ago
I think it goes back to what Rob highlights in the post.. the bad marketing is what sticks out. When we think of marketing, we think of booth babes, commercials with bad actors saying awkward things, and airheads who don't understand their business or product. The best "sales" guy I ever met was a guy who just stopped and listened. He would ask a few questions, work to understand the underlying problems, and if he couldn't help directly, he'd put you in touch with someone who could.. and then buy a beer the next time he saw you. I believe marketing should be the same way. (Disclosure: I report to the OP at Twilio.)
- Nowyouknow 14y ago
  You're entirely right, the good sales person and the good marketer spark the conversation and keep it going. They shouldn't be the dominant voice. See my reply below as it pertains to this. Sidenote: I love Twilio as a company and have ever since you guys sponsored a Startup Weekend in Chicago about 3 years ago. I wish y'all were hiring.
  - mcos 14y ago
    They are hiring! http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/twilio/list http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/twilio/list
    - Nowyouknow 14y ago
      You're right! I actually checked before submitting that comment, I should have said, "I wish you guys were hiring IN CHICAGO."
      - caseysoftware 14y ago
        If you're interested in Developer Evangelism in Chicago, email me. We make it there but not nearly often enough. I'm Austin based.. and it's way better than SF. ;)
        14y ago
RobSpectre 14y ago
Thanks. :)
- Nowyouknow 14y ago
  You're welcome! Articles like yours encourage me to learn to code and become a more well rounded marketer.

debacle 14y ago

I think it's a culture thing. There are good marketers and there are terrible marketers. In programming, there is a culture of calling people out for their bullshit. In most other business cultures, it's a bit less belligerent.

Nowyouknow 14y ago
Yeah, it's tough for marketers in a different sense. Good marketing it pervasive, but no in your face and blatant. When a marketer is doing a good job, that "work" is not readily apparent because it could have been as simple as having the right conversation at the right time. My daily struggle is to quantify my accomplishments, it really is too easy to dismiss the "marketing guy".
jonnathanson 14y ago
"In programming, there is a culture of calling people out for their bullshit. In most other business cultures, it's a bit less belligerent." Marketing can be every bit as confrontational, but it's usually more passive aggressive. You'll rarely get called out in a meeting, but you'll get outmaneuvered or back-channeled after the meeting is over. The field is incredibly political. When I worked in marketing, I felt like I was a character in "Game of Thrones." The constant alliances, shifts, backstabbings, feints, etc., were exhausting. Obviously, a great deal of this depends on company culture. But as general disciplines, marketing and sales seem to attract political types. Given the choice between the two styles of confrontation, I'd much rather have it out in the room, all agendas laid bare on the table, than have to play GoT every day. But that's just a personal preference.
- Nowyouknow 14y ago
  ENTIRELY dependent on company culture and this goes back to the lack of performance measurement for marketers. Everyone involved in the process is looking over their shoulders. If a company values marketing and gives their marketers "free reign" as it were, all is right in the world. When marketers are micromanaged, that Game of Thrones comparison is spot on. The passive aggressiveness in the industry is suffocating.
  - jonnathanson 14y ago
    The problem isn't so much that marketers don't have concrete and measurable KPIs. They do. But at many companies, marketers affect those KPIs only indirectly. For instance, if you work in marketing for a B2B sales-driven company, it's very hard for the marketers to quantify their performance (whereas it's fairly easy for the salespeople to do so, even if some credit deserves to be shared). Similarly, if you're working in marketing for a retailer, the buyers or operations people will be able to measure sales, profit margins, operational efficiency, etc. Marketing may have a huge impact on several of those metrics, but the marketer doesn't have his or her hand on the lever as directly as the buyer does. Etc. The problem with the discipline of marketing is that it's often a complementary discipline. It's sort of like the Steve Nash or Magic Johnson of company operations: if it's performing well, it's enhancing the performance of everyone else on the team. In certain industries, by contrast, marketing rules the roost. The consumer packaged goods (CPG) business, for instance, is directed by marketing. A marketer at a CPG firm, known commonly as a Brand Manager, is exactly that: he or she is running almost every aspect of a major brand. Accordingly, the performance of brand managers is (relatively) easy to measure. You've got sales, margins, market share, etc., and all of them tie fairly directly to your business decisions. Brand management is akin to general management, and many brand managers would argue that what they do is full-spectrum marketing; everyone in marketing in other industries is just performing a subset of what the brand manager does.
    - RobSpectre 14y ago
      Really like this analogy. I'm coming around to the metaphor that engineering is the fire and marketing is the gasoline. Still not sure if it applies universally, but generally acknowledge it can be the catalyst for a great product to get widespread adoption.
slurgfest 14y ago
Often there is a culture of one-upmanship, which is subtly different.

caseysoftware 14y ago

I think it goes back to what Rob highlights in the post.. the bad marketing is what sticks out. When we think of marketing, we think of booth babes, commercials with bad actors saying awkward things, and airheads who don't understand their business or product. The best "sales" guy I ever met was a guy who just stopped and listened. He would ask a few questions, work to understand the underlying problems, and if he couldn't help directly, he'd put you in touch with someone who could.. and then buy a beer the next time he saw you. I believe marketing should be the same way. (Disclosure: I report to the OP at Twilio.)

Nowyouknow 14y ago
You're entirely right, the good sales person and the good marketer spark the conversation and keep it going. They shouldn't be the dominant voice. See my reply below as it pertains to this. Sidenote: I love Twilio as a company and have ever since you guys sponsored a Startup Weekend in Chicago about 3 years ago. I wish y'all were hiring.
- mcos 14y ago
  They are hiring! http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/twilio/list http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/twilio/list
  - Nowyouknow 14y ago
    You're right! I actually checked before submitting that comment, I should have said, "I wish you guys were hiring IN CHICAGO."
    - caseysoftware 14y ago
      If you're interested in Developer Evangelism in Chicago, email me. We make it there but not nearly often enough. I'm Austin based.. and it's way better than SF. ;)
      - 14y ago

RobSpectre 14y ago

Thanks. :)

Nowyouknow 14y ago
You're welcome! Articles like yours encourage me to learn to code and become a more well rounded marketer.