4 ms·

Why didn't they start Women's Sheds?

subscribed 1y ago
Oh, but why if they're having a functional clubs already? I feel like men only spaces in the UK are frowned upon (see Garrick club narration). No matter the reason, the only way single sex spaces work here is women only.
- jl6 1y ago
  In UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex, unless that exclusion is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. It’s fairly well understood that women have sex-based needs that justify this aim, but very rarely recognized that men might have such needs too. Maybe this is one of them. The fear will always be that male-only spaces will become centers of power and decision-making that women are excluded from. That’s where the private London clubs sit. Doesn’t seem as likely to happen in a shed, but who knows?
  - King-Aaron 1y ago
    Generally speaking women are more than welcome at Mens Sheds (In Australia, at least). The ratio of men to women that enjoy sanding wood and tinkering with lawnmowers usually leans more heavily to men, but I've seen the girls around the traps too.
  - parliament32 1y ago
    >it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex So are women-only gyms not a thing in the UK then? Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA).
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA). Despite the names, neither the YWCA or YMCA as broad organizations strictly restrict membership by gender (or religion, for that matter.) My understanding with YWCA specifically is that inclusiveness on gender varies considerably by individual local association.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > In UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex Whether or not the law prohibits or permits such discrimination, differential treatment (definitely including outright exclusion) on the basis of sex is, obviously sex discrimination, that’s just the meaning of the words.
- jim-jim-jim 1y ago
  I'm under the impression that women's only spaces are very much frowned upon in the English speaking world, whether it be in sports, book awards, knitting circles, toilets, or prisons. This isn't an x-has-it-worse comment by the way. I think every demographic is entitled to self-segregate without shame, and the ladies definitely face their own struggles in achieving this.
  - dwighttk 1y ago
    Your impression is mistaken. E.g. Girl Scouts: allowed to be girls only Boy Scouts: now “Scouting” because girls are allowed My intramural sports in college had coed and women only teams
    - compass_copium 1y ago
      BSA made the decision to allow girls on their own and it's been fantastic for the program.
      - bluefirebrand 1y ago
        You actually think this organization made this decision on their own with no outside pressure, or internal pressure from women? I have a bridge to sell you
        dralley 1y ago
        The "external pressure" was largely just the pressure of declining membership.
        bluefirebrand 1y ago
        What pressure led to declining membership? Did it have anything to do with "Boy Scouts is a sexist organization" narratives?
        1y ago
- rsynnott 1y ago
  So there’s at least one type of men’s only space in the UK; some gay club nights are men-only, and enforce this with registration/membership. Was a bit of a culture shock visiting from Ireland, where, as far as I know, this is not a thing (even the most male-oriented club nights _allow_ women, and there’ll usually be one or two; I’ve never known anyone to have a problem with this). I’m unsure whether there’s a legal issue here (one thing that comes to mind is that I know the UK at least historically had weird laws about what constitutes public sex, so maybe excluding women allows them to legally have darkrooms or something?) or if it’s just cultural.
  - moritonal 1y ago
    Anecdotally I heard this was because straight-women would prefer these clubs due to less pressure and more fun, which caused straight-men to try get into the clubs just to hit on them.
    - nothercastle 1y ago
      As a straight man can confirm
  - fennecfoxy 1y ago
    That's because gay clubs/bars have ended up chock full of straight women. People claim it's because it's "safer from all the gross men in other places", which may be partially true. But also I believe it's because gay clubs can just be nicer overall, plenty of interesting drinks like cocktails available rather than just beer, more variety in music, etc. I think they may disallow women because for the bi/pan men in the crowd - their behaviour changes when women are present, they get more aggressive, domineering, chest beating. I notice it all the time in queer but non-gay friends constantly. Which always annoyed me because I've been to a few Soho "gay" bars since and they're just full of straight women/hen dos. Asked for a cocktail..."we don't do cocktails". How the fuck do you call yourself a gay bar anymore then! I go to a regular meet and one of the places next door is a drag bar, whose entire purpose seems to be to host hen dos. Ugh.
HankStallone 1y ago
Women do have their own spaces, at least here in the Midwest US. But women tend to think the men are having more fun over in their male-only spaces, so they want into them, and then those spaces become co-ed, and pretty soon the men are looking around for a new male-only space. Not because they don't enjoy spending time with women, but because there's something about a male-only space that lets a man relax and recharge in a different way. That cycle tends to repeat, and you don't really see it in reverse. Men are mildly curious, at most, about what women do in their own spaces, and generally don't seek to join them. That probably adds to the perception women have that the male-only spaces are more fun.
- nothercastle 1y ago
  It’s because women fight vigorously and scream loudly to keep men out. They call them creeps and that’s almost always effective
beAbU 1y ago
Ireland has women's sheds I believe

Oh, but why if they're having a functional clubs already? I feel like men only spaces in the UK are frowned upon (see Garrick club narration). No matter the reason, the only way single sex spaces work here is women only.

jl6 1y ago
In UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex, unless that exclusion is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. It’s fairly well understood that women have sex-based needs that justify this aim, but very rarely recognized that men might have such needs too. Maybe this is one of them. The fear will always be that male-only spaces will become centers of power and decision-making that women are excluded from. That’s where the private London clubs sit. Doesn’t seem as likely to happen in a shed, but who knows?
- King-Aaron 1y ago
  Generally speaking women are more than welcome at Mens Sheds (In Australia, at least). The ratio of men to women that enjoy sanding wood and tinkering with lawnmowers usually leans more heavily to men, but I've seen the girls around the traps too.
- parliament32 1y ago
  >it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex So are women-only gyms not a thing in the UK then? Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA).
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA). Despite the names, neither the YWCA or YMCA as broad organizations strictly restrict membership by gender (or religion, for that matter.) My understanding with YWCA specifically is that inclusiveness on gender varies considerably by individual local association.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > In UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex Whether or not the law prohibits or permits such discrimination, differential treatment (definitely including outright exclusion) on the basis of sex is, obviously sex discrimination, that’s just the meaning of the words.
jim-jim-jim 1y ago
I'm under the impression that women's only spaces are very much frowned upon in the English speaking world, whether it be in sports, book awards, knitting circles, toilets, or prisons. This isn't an x-has-it-worse comment by the way. I think every demographic is entitled to self-segregate without shame, and the ladies definitely face their own struggles in achieving this.
- dwighttk 1y ago
  Your impression is mistaken. E.g. Girl Scouts: allowed to be girls only Boy Scouts: now “Scouting” because girls are allowed My intramural sports in college had coed and women only teams
  - compass_copium 1y ago
    BSA made the decision to allow girls on their own and it's been fantastic for the program.
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      You actually think this organization made this decision on their own with no outside pressure, or internal pressure from women? I have a bridge to sell you
      - dralley 1y ago
        The "external pressure" was largely just the pressure of declining membership.
        bluefirebrand 1y ago
        What pressure led to declining membership? Did it have anything to do with "Boy Scouts is a sexist organization" narratives?
        1y ago
rsynnott 1y ago
So there’s at least one type of men’s only space in the UK; some gay club nights are men-only, and enforce this with registration/membership. Was a bit of a culture shock visiting from Ireland, where, as far as I know, this is not a thing (even the most male-oriented club nights _allow_ women, and there’ll usually be one or two; I’ve never known anyone to have a problem with this). I’m unsure whether there’s a legal issue here (one thing that comes to mind is that I know the UK at least historically had weird laws about what constitutes public sex, so maybe excluding women allows them to legally have darkrooms or something?) or if it’s just cultural.
- moritonal 1y ago
  Anecdotally I heard this was because straight-women would prefer these clubs due to less pressure and more fun, which caused straight-men to try get into the clubs just to hit on them.
  - nothercastle 1y ago
    As a straight man can confirm
- fennecfoxy 1y ago
  That's because gay clubs/bars have ended up chock full of straight women. People claim it's because it's "safer from all the gross men in other places", which may be partially true. But also I believe it's because gay clubs can just be nicer overall, plenty of interesting drinks like cocktails available rather than just beer, more variety in music, etc. I think they may disallow women because for the bi/pan men in the crowd - their behaviour changes when women are present, they get more aggressive, domineering, chest beating. I notice it all the time in queer but non-gay friends constantly. Which always annoyed me because I've been to a few Soho "gay" bars since and they're just full of straight women/hen dos. Asked for a cocktail..."we don't do cocktails". How the fuck do you call yourself a gay bar anymore then! I go to a regular meet and one of the places next door is a drag bar, whose entire purpose seems to be to host hen dos. Ugh.

HankStallone 1y ago

Women do have their own spaces, at least here in the Midwest US. But women tend to think the men are having more fun over in their male-only spaces, so they want into them, and then those spaces become co-ed, and pretty soon the men are looking around for a new male-only space. Not because they don't enjoy spending time with women, but because there's something about a male-only space that lets a man relax and recharge in a different way. That cycle tends to repeat, and you don't really see it in reverse. Men are mildly curious, at most, about what women do in their own spaces, and generally don't seek to join them. That probably adds to the perception women have that the male-only spaces are more fun.

nothercastle 1y ago
It’s because women fight vigorously and scream loudly to keep men out. They call them creeps and that’s almost always effective

beAbU 1y ago

Ireland has women's sheds I believe