4 ms·

They need to be male only spaces because introducing women to the space fundamentally changes the social dynamic among the men, especially the single men I hav

They need to be male only spaces because introducing women to the space fundamentally changes the social dynamic among the men, especially the single men I have seen this ever since the moment me and my friends hit puberty in high school, to this very day. When a group of men is hanging out they are more relaxed. The moment a woman is in the space the vibe changes I cannot be the only person who has noticed this

ToucanLoucan 1y ago
[flagged]
- adrianN 1y ago
  „Just don’t comply with social expectations“ is an advice that is often given but seldomly followed.
- baq 1y ago
  No. It’s a human issue. Some women with a female version of the you problem make the male you problem worse. Why some places can’t be man-free or woman-free to get biology and game theory out of the way?
  - lynx97 1y ago
    This.
- BurningFrog 1y ago
  You're completely missing the point. A mixed group works different socially than a male only group. That's not because the men are socially incompetent. It's because it's a fundamentally different social situation. Even when everyone is an elite socializer. I'm afraid you may be the one who needs to learn more about socializing.
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  > Like I'm being a bit of a contrarian dick This is the only thing you've said that I agree with > If you lose the ability to be a normal person What is normal for a group of men is different than what is normal for the same group of men when a woman is present It's not rocket science here.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Why? And why gender, but not race?
    - lan321 1y ago
      Homies that want to smash change to chad mode and suddenly don't want to talk that gay homie shit around the girls. You'd be threatening each other with sloppy toppy, a girl will join and 1-2 guys will instantly turn into businessmen to impress her.
    - sethammons 1y ago
      Why would race matter in this context? This is clearly about socio-sexual dynamics. Genders are the key differentiator.
      - immibis 1y ago
        Why aren't there also socio-racial dynamics?
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Yes, what is this vibe change? So far I'm picking up: * Single men don't feel compelled to be horndogs and show off and compete. * Married men are tired of always doing everything with their wives. * Possible gay interest? * Something about model trains, apparently women ruin model trains?
      - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
        Men in men-only spaces can be honest and open about their experiences with women, which includes being critical of women, without being shamed for it. This is impossible in spaces where women are also present.
- kujillo 1y ago
  [flagged]
- zwaps 1y ago
  Nobody said anything like this. I love hanging out in mixed groups. However, and this may shock you, I also love hanging out in non mixed groups. And they are not the same.
  - joris_w 1y ago
    Actually OP started this thread as a description of a solution to the male loneliness problem.
- kelnos 1y ago
  > If you lose the ability to be a normal person whenever That depends on what "normal" is, and I don't think you or I get to define it. I mostly hang out in mixed-gender groups, but I absolutely have seen the difference in vibe others in this thread have noted, when I'm hanging out with a group of just other men. Especially when compared to a mixed group that has both single men and single women. > men are putting these strange rules and requirements on their own selves I wouldn't call it a "rule" so much as a "phenomenon". It just seems to kinda happen. Not always, and not in every mixed-gender group, but it does happen. I don't think anyone is making up or following any kind of "rules", and I can't control group dynamics or behavior on my own. > I don't think that's a society issue. I think that's a you issue. I think this discussion would be more productive without thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks.
  - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - poncho_romero 1y ago
      > The problem is the vast majority of women think this is stupid as fuck Who are you to speak for “the vast majority of women”?
groestl 1y ago
What I've learned is that as an outsider, a group is less likely to be a threat to me (I'm male) if there's at least one women there. Maybe that's because attention is then directed inwards, and that, in turn, might cause the relaxed feeling at the inside to diminish.
PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
[flagged]
- lynx97 1y ago
  Maybe because heterosexuality is still the norm?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- scarby2 1y ago
  It's broadly true though. It doesn't apply to all of us but as a group it's a thing. Personally it's not for me, I'm a heterosexual male but I get on far better with women and find men's spaces intimidating.
  - foxglacier 1y ago
    I used to feel the same way as you but then I discovered I was wasn't really getting on well in female dominated groups after-all. It's all smiles and pleasantries on the surface but you're not one of them and aren't part of their gossip, but can quickly become the subject of it. If they really are trusting you with their gossip and speculations about other members then perhaps you truly can assimilate. There's also talking about sex which women do with each other far more readily than with men.
    - scarby2 1y ago
      With my current close friends I get included in far more gossip than I care to be and know the intimate details of past partners, kinks, fantasies etc.
- kortilla 1y ago
  No, because homosexual men tend not to compete with men for women’s attention.
  - 1y ago
imjustaghost 1y ago
This is a good point. I am a married man. As a woman, my wife cannot give me guy time - hence I love to hang out with my friends (who are all guys) - and I cannot give her girl time - hence she loves to hang out with her friends (who are all girls). The only women I am happy to be friendly with are colleagues (in a professional manner), family and ladies that my wife and I are friends with. A lot of people baulk at this sort of arrangement/tolerance - but I bet it's quite common.
- groestl 1y ago
  I'm sure it's common, but I've always hung around in mixed groups, doing whatever, so I'm puzzled and curious what guy time or girl time even is.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - meheleventyone 1y ago
    You'll note that most people saying this stuff are being extremely non-specific about what it means. My impression is that a lot of what they want to do would be offensive to lots of guys as well. Essentially they want a space to act in a way that women would feel quite threatened by. Not that mixed groups don't already have that as an issue.
    - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - jajko 1y ago
      You couldnt be more wrong in your guessing. The answer lies in games all women play with both men and women constantly, never being truly honest with words, expecting men to pick up meaning between lines, predict their emotions and so on and on. We have enough shit in our lives already, no need to add more. Its frustrating and tiring experience for all men, thus the need to vent out somewhere else where these dynamics dont play out semi constantly. I am pretty sure women see it similarly in reverse although details in dynamics are very different.
tayo42 1y ago
[flagged]
- lambdaphagy 1y ago
  Practically every culture on earth (except ours as of 10 minutes ago) had some sort of place for single-sex bonding, which suggests there’s something important to it. Traditional cultures aren’t incel, to the contrary it’s only in modern cultures that mass-scale failures of relations between the sexes seem to arise. As for bjj, the scenario of the instructor dating a female student and breaking up the gym in the ensuing fallout is a well-deserved trope by now. There are women at my gym and you can make it work if everyone’s bending over backwards to be professional, but it’s obviously Different.
  - tayo42 1y ago
    Every culture that treated women equally? Or were there male only spaces because women were seen at 2nd (or 3rd tier people, below the pets?) I trained at a gym where that scenario happened, people were already leaving because the teacher was an ass in general, played favorites with the male students and created at cliquey environment. There really isn't anything women can't handle in front of men. Thinking you have some dark thing that cant be said in front of women or that you need to change how you behave is odd and exclusive to you.
    - lambdaphagy 1y ago
      No culture treats men and women equally-- they differ in how they treat men and women differently. Just today in my progressive coastal startup, for example, there was a proposal to set up a dedicated ERG for the women employees. In a company where people are routinely pulling 60-80 hour weeks, it was considered a plausible priority to take time aside to especially ensure that the women were feeling comfortable. Whether or not this proposal is a good idea is not even the point: the point is that it was considered plausible, and hence that not even coastal progressives actually think it desirable to treat men and women equally. I'm not making any claims about what anyone can or can't handle. I'm simply observing that just about every mixed group ends up adopting female norms of communication. I'm not even saying that's necessarily a bad thing for a mixed group, I think it's to some extent natural and healthy in social settings. In fact taboos that proscribe the ways men may speak in the presence of women are also quite common cross-culturally. But the fact that there is a difference remains.
potato3732842 1y ago
>I cannot be the only person who has noticed this The US marine corps noticed this and it was a huge point of contention (kind of still is).

ToucanLoucan 1y ago

[flagged]

adrianN 1y ago
„Just don’t comply with social expectations“ is an advice that is often given but seldomly followed.
baq 1y ago
No. It’s a human issue. Some women with a female version of the you problem make the male you problem worse. Why some places can’t be man-free or woman-free to get biology and game theory out of the way?
- lynx97 1y ago
  This.
BurningFrog 1y ago
You're completely missing the point. A mixed group works different socially than a male only group. That's not because the men are socially incompetent. It's because it's a fundamentally different social situation. Even when everyone is an elite socializer. I'm afraid you may be the one who needs to learn more about socializing.
bluefirebrand 1y ago
> Like I'm being a bit of a contrarian dick This is the only thing you've said that I agree with > If you lose the ability to be a normal person What is normal for a group of men is different than what is normal for the same group of men when a woman is present It's not rocket science here.
- immibis 1y ago
  Why? And why gender, but not race?
  - lan321 1y ago
    Homies that want to smash change to chad mode and suddenly don't want to talk that gay homie shit around the girls. You'd be threatening each other with sloppy toppy, a girl will join and 1-2 guys will instantly turn into businessmen to impress her.
  - sethammons 1y ago
    Why would race matter in this context? This is clearly about socio-sexual dynamics. Genders are the key differentiator.
    - immibis 1y ago
      Why aren't there also socio-racial dynamics?
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Yes, what is this vibe change? So far I'm picking up: * Single men don't feel compelled to be horndogs and show off and compete. * Married men are tired of always doing everything with their wives. * Possible gay interest? * Something about model trains, apparently women ruin model trains?
    - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
      Men in men-only spaces can be honest and open about their experiences with women, which includes being critical of women, without being shamed for it. This is impossible in spaces where women are also present.
kujillo 1y ago
[flagged]
zwaps 1y ago
Nobody said anything like this. I love hanging out in mixed groups. However, and this may shock you, I also love hanging out in non mixed groups. And they are not the same.
- joris_w 1y ago
  Actually OP started this thread as a description of a solution to the male loneliness problem.
kelnos 1y ago
> If you lose the ability to be a normal person whenever That depends on what "normal" is, and I don't think you or I get to define it. I mostly hang out in mixed-gender groups, but I absolutely have seen the difference in vibe others in this thread have noted, when I'm hanging out with a group of just other men. Especially when compared to a mixed group that has both single men and single women. > men are putting these strange rules and requirements on their own selves I wouldn't call it a "rule" so much as a "phenomenon". It just seems to kinda happen. Not always, and not in every mixed-gender group, but it does happen. I don't think anyone is making up or following any kind of "rules", and I can't control group dynamics or behavior on my own. > I don't think that's a society issue. I think that's a you issue. I think this discussion would be more productive without thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks.
- ToucanLoucan 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - poncho_romero 1y ago
    > The problem is the vast majority of women think this is stupid as fuck Who are you to speak for “the vast majority of women”?

groestl 1y ago

What I've learned is that as an outsider, a group is less likely to be a threat to me (I'm male) if there's at least one women there. Maybe that's because attention is then directed inwards, and that, in turn, might cause the relaxed feeling at the inside to diminish.

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago

[flagged]

lynx97 1y ago
Maybe because heterosexuality is still the norm?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
scarby2 1y ago
It's broadly true though. It doesn't apply to all of us but as a group it's a thing. Personally it's not for me, I'm a heterosexual male but I get on far better with women and find men's spaces intimidating.
- foxglacier 1y ago
  I used to feel the same way as you but then I discovered I was wasn't really getting on well in female dominated groups after-all. It's all smiles and pleasantries on the surface but you're not one of them and aren't part of their gossip, but can quickly become the subject of it. If they really are trusting you with their gossip and speculations about other members then perhaps you truly can assimilate. There's also talking about sex which women do with each other far more readily than with men.
  - scarby2 1y ago
    With my current close friends I get included in far more gossip than I care to be and know the intimate details of past partners, kinks, fantasies etc.
kortilla 1y ago
No, because homosexual men tend not to compete with men for women’s attention.
- 1y ago

imjustaghost 1y ago

This is a good point. I am a married man. As a woman, my wife cannot give me guy time - hence I love to hang out with my friends (who are all guys) - and I cannot give her girl time - hence she loves to hang out with her friends (who are all girls). The only women I am happy to be friendly with are colleagues (in a professional manner), family and ladies that my wife and I are friends with. A lot of people baulk at this sort of arrangement/tolerance - but I bet it's quite common.

groestl 1y ago
I'm sure it's common, but I've always hung around in mixed groups, doing whatever, so I'm puzzled and curious what guy time or girl time even is.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- meheleventyone 1y ago
  You'll note that most people saying this stuff are being extremely non-specific about what it means. My impression is that a lot of what they want to do would be offensive to lots of guys as well. Essentially they want a space to act in a way that women would feel quite threatened by. Not that mixed groups don't already have that as an issue.
  - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - jajko 1y ago
    You couldnt be more wrong in your guessing. The answer lies in games all women play with both men and women constantly, never being truly honest with words, expecting men to pick up meaning between lines, predict their emotions and so on and on. We have enough shit in our lives already, no need to add more. Its frustrating and tiring experience for all men, thus the need to vent out somewhere else where these dynamics dont play out semi constantly. I am pretty sure women see it similarly in reverse although details in dynamics are very different.

tayo42 1y ago

[flagged]

lambdaphagy 1y ago
Practically every culture on earth (except ours as of 10 minutes ago) had some sort of place for single-sex bonding, which suggests there’s something important to it. Traditional cultures aren’t incel, to the contrary it’s only in modern cultures that mass-scale failures of relations between the sexes seem to arise. As for bjj, the scenario of the instructor dating a female student and breaking up the gym in the ensuing fallout is a well-deserved trope by now. There are women at my gym and you can make it work if everyone’s bending over backwards to be professional, but it’s obviously Different.
- tayo42 1y ago
  Every culture that treated women equally? Or were there male only spaces because women were seen at 2nd (or 3rd tier people, below the pets?) I trained at a gym where that scenario happened, people were already leaving because the teacher was an ass in general, played favorites with the male students and created at cliquey environment. There really isn't anything women can't handle in front of men. Thinking you have some dark thing that cant be said in front of women or that you need to change how you behave is odd and exclusive to you.
  - lambdaphagy 1y ago
    No culture treats men and women equally-- they differ in how they treat men and women differently. Just today in my progressive coastal startup, for example, there was a proposal to set up a dedicated ERG for the women employees. In a company where people are routinely pulling 60-80 hour weeks, it was considered a plausible priority to take time aside to especially ensure that the women were feeling comfortable. Whether or not this proposal is a good idea is not even the point: the point is that it was considered plausible, and hence that not even coastal progressives actually think it desirable to treat men and women equally. I'm not making any claims about what anyone can or can't handle. I'm simply observing that just about every mixed group ends up adopting female norms of communication. I'm not even saying that's necessarily a bad thing for a mixed group, I think it's to some extent natural and healthy in social settings. In fact taboos that proscribe the ways men may speak in the presence of women are also quite common cross-culturally. But the fact that there is a difference remains.

potato3732842 1y ago

>I cannot be the only person who has noticed this The US marine corps noticed this and it was a huge point of contention (kind of still is).