3 ms·

Is there some reason we can't just take the PDF forms, script them so they assist the filer, and then allow a form of digital attestation and filing? What mo

Is there some reason we can't just take the PDF forms, script them so they assist the filer, and then allow a form of digital attestation and filing? What more needs to be done?

Henchman21 1y ago
How about we just have the gov't do the math based on what our employers already tell them and then send us a bill or refund. Why must we play this game as if the gov't doesn't know all the info already?
- PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
  There are a bunch of us for whom it doesn't have all the info (if any, in fact). Granted, the ranks of the self-employed are a small fraction of all taxpayers, and there's no reason the latter should be forced to do things as if they were part of the former.
  - Henchman21 1y ago
    Yep I think the Pareto principle applies: let’s knock out 80% who can just be sent a bill/check.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Because in many cases they don't know. They don't know about your self-employment income and business expenses. They might not know about your marital status and dependents. They won't know about various credits such as education expenses, solar or EV credits, etc.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - smadge 1y ago
    What percentage of tax filers have a single W-2, maybe a 1099, and take the standard deduction? If I had to guess, 80%.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Probably. And they could do their taxes on paper in 20 minutes if they weren't afraid to. TurboTax would like you to believe otherwise of course.
      - Henchman21 1y ago
        That fear seems, anecdotally, to be related to fucking it up and incurring massive liability possibly jail time. It doesn’t even matter if that statement is true — it just seems to be The Fear.
- tallowen 1y ago
  There is a bunch of code to import w2s from the SSA in this codebase - this did happen this year for direct file. That being said, big issues remain: - Employers don't tell the federal government about state tax information and when they do, the government doesn't store that information - W2s aren't due to the SSA at the opening of tax filing season and penalties aren't commonly enforced for submitting w2s on time. https://github.com/IRS-Public/direct-file/blob/main/direct-file/df-client/df-client-app/src/redux/slices/data-import/schema/W2Schema.ts#L28 https://github.com/IRS-Public/direct-file/blob/main/direct-f...
xyst 1y ago
Why bother with the "interview" at all? Most, if not all, countries send their citizens a tax bill with what they are owed or due. Very simple. No more guessing game. This overly complex system we have in the USA is built intentionally to benefit multi-billion dollar tax preparation industry.
- timewizard 1y ago
  You can deduct medical expenses if they're large enough relative to your salary. You can deduct the cost of thefts. You can deduct alimony. You can deduct student loan interest. You can deduct business use of your car. Donations to charity. Bad loans you gave out. Gambling loses. Life is not simple. You should not perceive this as an "interview." The tax industry is huge because our businesses are monopoly sized. The majority of money that is liable for tax purposes is held and moved by businesses. Your income taxes are not what this industry runs on.
wredcoll 1y ago
I posted a bit of a rant on this down thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44133009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44133009
PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
https://freefillableforms.com/ https://freefillableforms.com/ More or less as you describe, for your IRS returns, of arbitrary complexity and value.
- foota 1y ago
  You're missing an F, https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/ https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/
  - timewizard 1y ago
    This is sort of what I'm getting at. These are my taxes. I honestly don't want to involve a third party or sketchy links leading to janky websites. I want to go to IRS.gov, download a form, fill it out, submit it, all within a very limited context and with the smallest amount of feedback that the process completed successfully so I can relieve myself of the burden for another year. The IRS actually already has the forms. It needs the scripting. It needs a digital submission system. That should be it and should be most of what average taxpayers actually need.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
      The site is actually run in a partnership between the IRS and Intuit and some other company. The GOP prevented it from being branded as an IRS "product".

Is there some reason we can't just take the PDF forms, script them so they assist the filer, and then allow a form of digital attestation and filing? What more needs to be done?

Henchman21 1y ago

How about we just have the gov't do the math based on what our employers already tell them and then send us a bill or refund. Why must we play this game as if the gov't doesn't know all the info already?

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
There are a bunch of us for whom it doesn't have all the info (if any, in fact). Granted, the ranks of the self-employed are a small fraction of all taxpayers, and there's no reason the latter should be forced to do things as if they were part of the former.
- Henchman21 1y ago
  Yep I think the Pareto principle applies: let’s knock out 80% who can just be sent a bill/check.
SoftTalker 1y ago
Because in many cases they don't know. They don't know about your self-employment income and business expenses. They might not know about your marital status and dependents. They won't know about various credits such as education expenses, solar or EV credits, etc.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- smadge 1y ago
  What percentage of tax filers have a single W-2, maybe a 1099, and take the standard deduction? If I had to guess, 80%.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Probably. And they could do their taxes on paper in 20 minutes if they weren't afraid to. TurboTax would like you to believe otherwise of course.
    - Henchman21 1y ago
      That fear seems, anecdotally, to be related to fucking it up and incurring massive liability possibly jail time. It doesn’t even matter if that statement is true — it just seems to be The Fear.
tallowen 1y ago
There is a bunch of code to import w2s from the SSA in this codebase - this did happen this year for direct file. That being said, big issues remain: - Employers don't tell the federal government about state tax information and when they do, the government doesn't store that information - W2s aren't due to the SSA at the opening of tax filing season and penalties aren't commonly enforced for submitting w2s on time. https://github.com/IRS-Public/direct-file/blob/main/direct-file/df-client/df-client-app/src/redux/slices/data-import/schema/W2Schema.ts#L28 https://github.com/IRS-Public/direct-file/blob/main/direct-f...

xyst 1y ago

Why bother with the "interview" at all? Most, if not all, countries send their citizens a tax bill with what they are owed or due. Very simple. No more guessing game. This overly complex system we have in the USA is built intentionally to benefit multi-billion dollar tax preparation industry.

timewizard 1y ago
You can deduct medical expenses if they're large enough relative to your salary. You can deduct the cost of thefts. You can deduct alimony. You can deduct student loan interest. You can deduct business use of your car. Donations to charity. Bad loans you gave out. Gambling loses. Life is not simple. You should not perceive this as an "interview." The tax industry is huge because our businesses are monopoly sized. The majority of money that is liable for tax purposes is held and moved by businesses. Your income taxes are not what this industry runs on.

wredcoll 1y ago

I posted a bit of a rant on this down thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44133009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44133009

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago

https://freefillableforms.com/ https://freefillableforms.com/ More or less as you describe, for your IRS returns, of arbitrary complexity and value.

foota 1y ago
You're missing an F, https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/ https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/
- timewizard 1y ago
  This is sort of what I'm getting at. These are my taxes. I honestly don't want to involve a third party or sketchy links leading to janky websites. I want to go to IRS.gov, download a form, fill it out, submit it, all within a very limited context and with the smallest amount of feedback that the process completed successfully so I can relieve myself of the burden for another year. The IRS actually already has the forms. It needs the scripting. It needs a digital submission system. That should be it and should be most of what average taxpayers actually need.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
    The site is actually run in a partnership between the IRS and Intuit and some other company. The GOP prevented it from being branded as an IRS "product".