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The lack of deep friendships feel like a 3-fold problem. 1. You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone some

The lack of deep friendships feel like a 3-fold problem. 1. You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of, and someone else will raise their own profile by mining your impiety to prove their own concern and moral superiority. 2. Everyone is so mobile and connected online, they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space, so all of our social skills have atrophied at best, or were never learned at worst. We know just enough civility to not get in fights, but we don't know how to easily break the ice or become acquaintances. 3. All the people that live in the cities are not close with each other, they didn't grow up together and don't go to church / rotary club / male-only spaces any longer because we are all supposed to pretend to be cool liberated yuppies in a hookup culture. Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad. So I'm okay, you're okay, and we all smile. And inside, no real connections are ever made. Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces, and a breakup of younger and older generations because of cultural differences there too...not that the old people are always nice.

nswizzle31 1y ago
Appreciate the thoughts - totally agree on those issues, but I don't think the problem is insurmountable. There is a real - albeit latent, maybe - demand for deep friendship and male-only spaces. Everyone recognizes it's an issue, at the very least, and is being more vocal about it in the face of the dramatic enshittification of the internet over the last few years. It just takes too much self-discipline to break out of the internet consistently enough to build meaningful relationships without someone / something taking the initiative. I am sort of trying to replicate that at a larger scale by removing any friction to making plans. Would love to hear your thoughts on if / what you think the solution is.
- EGreg 1y ago
  Here are my thoughts… well, an article about my thoughts anyway: https://www.laweekly.com/restoring-healthy-communities/ https://www.laweekly.com/restoring-healthy-communities/
- Animats 1y ago
  > deep friendship and male-only spaces. Gun ranges?
  - nsxwolf 1y ago
    Too loud
  - mock-possum 1y ago
    > male-only spaces
parpfish 1y ago
> Everyone is so mobile and connected online, they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them one of the unexpected consequences of social media is that people have been conflating being informed with being connected. asking "what have you been up to?" was to be a nice easy opening into a conversation that lead to connection. but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. but a relationship isn't built on updating a list of superficial facts. it's built by having a conversation
- mynameisash 1y ago
  > thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. This is a huge reason (possibly the top reason) why I quit Facebook. I wasn't getting value from my "connections", and I figured everyone knew, more or less, what I was doing (& I knew what they were doing), so we didn't actually interact. I figured if I was no longer going to be friends with these people, I didn't want a facade. So I quit it, and I don't use the other usual suspects (Instagram, Snapchat, tiktok, etc.) It's great. I actually have some honest to goodness friends IRL that I hug, with whom I talk about real things, etc.
- tayo42 1y ago
  >but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. I don't think this is really a big deal. "hey I saw you posted pictures from your trip. How was it" there, conversation started. Social media posts are basically all conversation starters. Assuming you can even remember. I pretty quickly forget people's posts and updates.
  - parpfish 1y ago
    The problem is more that you never bother to have the convo where ask how things are going because your in your mind you think you’re all up-to-date.
losteric 1y ago
This is incredibly fatalistic. I lived under all of this, plus two immigrant parents with no community / role modeling, isolated in suburbia as a kid with a chronically online 20s. Yeah that nurturing left its mark. Yet I learned to see it, and learn new patterns. In my 30s I have deep friendships. Younger, older, men, women, nb. Most are still shallow, my energy is limited, but even there sometimes we touch into depth when it comes to relationship or existential stuff. Rewrite your programming.
- crtnptofvw 1y ago
  For me things like “loneliness epidemic” is fatalistic. End is nigh if some specific stat is not maintained. Giant foot will squish us all. It’s pop-sci, gate-keeping, always be hustling zeitgeist obfuscated by high minded toxic positivity. Media post says there’s an epidemic. Academics come up with a theory of social science in a world where the Executive branch is blatantly manipulating the market. Fed and Congress manipulate employment options, COL through rates and tax code. Predictions of 10-12 billion people by 2100 do not line up with real birth trends. So much of our social truisms are made up cable TV hype that zapped the elders brains into anxious compliance. Narratives propagated in service to a random researchers rent and food money search. Fatalistic towards a social concept is not the same as “launch the nukes, humans suck.” Non-Christians can not believe without going about shooting Christians. Not accepting someone’s dissertation is the same thing.
entropie 1y ago
Your points are valid, but this I do not understand: > Not to mention testosterone levels dropping Why should declining testosterone levels prevent men from socializing and making friends? Logically, it should be the other way around, right?
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  It’s just the adders for all the other health metrics declining. Most are due to addiction to pleasure, lack of movement, obesity, etc.
- BurningFrog 1y ago
  Increased testosterone increases confidence, motivation, goal-oriented behavior, risk-taking and social assertiveness.
JKCalhoun 1y ago
> You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something… I'm real all the time. What am I missing here?
- rchaud 1y ago
  The 800lb elephant in the room about this whole idea - some people have trouble building friendships because they can't stop themselves from bringing up fringe topics with people they just met, and insisting on having conversations about them.
  - latentsea 1y ago
    Elephant's weigh more like 11,000lbs. I think you mean Gorilla? Speaking of Gorillas, have you ever read the book Chimpanzee Politics? Crazy how at the end the other two chimps break into the one chimps cage and literally rip his nuts off. Crazy huh? Oh wait... I'm doing that thing again, aren't I?
    - tbrownaw 1y ago
      It's a very small elephant, like the opposite of a jumbo shrimp.
      - tilne 1y ago
        This is the humor I’m looking for in a men’s club!
      - latentsea 1y ago
        Ah yes, shrimp... the cockroach of the sea. Jumbo sea cockroach.
  - nothercastle 1y ago
    I think it’s mostly men just not being that interested in being friends with other men unless there is something tangible to gain. Also 1:1 friendship is hard to maintain if you don’t have a shared 3rd space. A 3rd space allowed you to maintain friendships much more time effectively.
tdb7893 1y ago
"if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of" -> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known. "they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space" -> I've always talked to people at work and also I joined the most socially awkward hobby I've ever seen (historical sword fencing) and people are still very chatty. I also recently started volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitator and find myself just constantly chatting. "Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad" -> I've been friends with a lot of religious people but also non-religious people have strongly held beliefs (I hang out with a lot of vegans and I cannot imagine claiming they are afraid to publicly hold strong beliefs). I think your post just goes to show how different mens' experiences can be because, while I'm sure a lot of men probably can connect with this, my personal experiences could not be more opposite. I think it depends a ton on the sorts of crowds you run in, it almost sounds to me like the people you meet are generally judgy and antisocial but I've found people I'm around to be generally friendly (though I've found many people are happy to chat but are often hard to actually organize to otherwise hang out since people in their 30s are busy and some of my friends have kids now).
- rchaud 1y ago
  > is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known. Not for me, I have been to plenty of meetups in my city. If you're not liked or don't get along with the others, the worst that can happen is that you'll be politely ostracized. The paranoia about being publicly "cancelled" seems very overblown.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Well we already have people on this page commenting on the demograpic represented on the submitted web site. Yes, in today's world there are almost always people looking to play "gotcha" and will try to pin you as a racist, misogynist, homophobe, or some other sort of bigot or pariah.
bb88 1y ago
Male cops have changed from being thin and fit men (or average man) in the 1960's to large men with muscles, and sometimes roid rage. People earn good money playing video games now (that wasn't the case in the 1980's) or streaming video games. The sports heros children had while growing up used performance enhancing drugs in the 1990's. > Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces ... If your childhood heros take the lazy way to success, why do we need to blame it on the other things? Using your brain is hard, as it turns out. I've always detested parents who saw sports as the only path of success for their children. So often they were disappointed. If the parents spent time and sucked up and learned the math/science/etc their kids were learning, it may have been a better outcome for all involved.
- daseiner1 1y ago
  Is your comment just in response to the falling testosterone levels point? Because that’s been an ongoing trend since I believe the 80s and has absolutely nothing to do with performance enhancing drugs. Testosterone levels being in healthy range is absolutely critical for men’s health for psychological as well as physical reasons and being in said healthy range is unrelated with sports culture. Whether meathead or whiz kid, physical activity, healthy food, good sleep, limited drugs & alcohol, and minimal or no pornography are all essential parts of reaching one’s peak. Maybe I’m totally misinterpreting your comment but it kinda just seems like a diatribe unrelated to the comment you’re responding to.
wkat4242 1y ago
1) Real friends certainly let you be real. And the scene I frequent deeply frowns on unconsensual photography. Most of the events I go to they sticker all the cameras. I love that. I go there for the people not for Instagram. That's not to say nobody takes pics but they do it in a quiet corner so they don't catch anyone by mistake. It makes it very respectful. The stickers are just a reminder so you don't just start flicking away when you're drunk. It makes everyone feel safer and more genuine. 2) I guess but nothing some quick ice breaking games won't fix 3) In a small town there's much more familiarity yes. But also a much deeper sense of being watched and judged. I can't live with that. Even the small city I lived in was too small for me. Everyone knows everyone's business and constantly gossip behind your back. The nice thing in a big city is meeting new people and finding new places. And the variety. In a small town there's a lot of pressure to conform, eg often you're an outcast if you're not religious. I don't think they're bad but there's little acceptance of people who are different. So what do you do? Pretend. That's not real connection. In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places or events. And you can make real ties there. And even find out about other communities you might fit in. I really hate going to male-exclusive places by the way. There's very few men I have a deep connection with (I'm male) because the whole BS thing that it's frowned upon to talk about feelings. "Men's weekends" just end up with too much beer, macho talk, shooting the shit and hanging in front of the TV watching boring sports or crappy porn. Nothing serious, fun or enlightening. That's my experience with those anyway. I find that exhausting and I always excuse myself from them now. I used to try to fit in but the others would know I hated it anyway so it was awkward. I have much deeper relationships with lady friends. They're more open and less judgemental in general. I feel safer around them. So mixed events are a must for me.
- worthless-trash 1y ago
  > In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that > are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places. > And you can make real ties there. This is a massive assumption, but maybe 'yourself' is limited to a standard deviation from the accepted mean.
  - 1y ago
mock-possum 1y ago
I do think that the kind of people that complain about the male loneliness epidemic are the kind of people who would struggle with those issues- The only way to establish relationships is to be real - so of course if you believe you can’t be real, that’ll be a problem. Relationships kick off and grow and solidify via socializing - so of course if you’ve let your social skills atrophy and believe you have no chance to practice and improve them, that’ll be a problem. Your third point sounds like it’s really just a combination of your first two points, discomfort with being open and honest with others, and discomfort with intentionally socializing with strangers. Of course if you avoid those things to spare yourself the discomfort, you’re also avoiding the opportunity to make friends. The rest of it (testosterone? Co-ed?) sounds like bullshit to me. What I hear you being concerned about is: people don’t see the value in leaving their comfort zone in order to pursue what they want. Those fears you mention about not being real, and not knowing how to socialize, and not being around others, and being forced to go to schools for women (??) just sound like irrational fears to me. None of that stuff will kill you. If being a man is anything, then surely, being a man is facing those kinds of situations and saying “this makes me uncomfortable but it has to be done, I am afraid but I will do it anyway.” For me, that is the male loneliness epidemic, if such a thing even exists - it’s the unwillingness of some men to face their fears and do what needs to be done to make a connection with another human being.
- dtdynasty 1y ago
  Overall I agree with the point that people don't take the effort to change themselves and connect with another human being. > The only way to establish relationships is to be real Personally, I found emotional dissonance when people tell me this phrase. For a long time, acting like myself has ostracized me from other people and built shallow relationships. It's only when I didn't act like myself and faked it until it became a habit did I build deeper friendships. It's emotionally difficult when your natural way of acting is not accepted.
nathan_compton 1y ago
Don't get me wrong, I hate religion and everything, but America is still basically totally controlled by religious people and in many situations being non-religious is the weird thing. I can't imagine anyone would be feel stigmatized by religious belief in this country.
jaredklewis 1y ago
IME, none of those things are issues that prevent deep friendships in my own life. 1. I've never worried about this. 2. I regularly chat with strangers and acquaintances IRL, though I don't feel it does much to relieve loneliness or cultivate deep friendships. 3. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I've ever worried about being "religious" about something nor judged someone for being so. I would analyze my own life as follows: friendship requires time spent together. I'm a parent with a full time job in a car centric city, which keeps me pretty busy. I may get one day or night a week to go be social or do hobbies or go to a rotary club or whatever. That's a limited amount of time, so there's a corresponding limit on how many friendships I can realistically maintain. Let alone start new friendships. So I feel like "having it all" is not realistic. Everything takes time: working out, eating healthy, having friends, having a family, having a job, having a community, writing hacker news comments, and on and on. Most data shows that Dads now spend significantly more time with their kids than those of previous generations. So I think for people of my cohort (millennial dads) its just a case where we traded time with friends for time with family.
gaws 1y ago
> You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of, and someone else will raise their own profile by mining your impiety to prove their own concern and moral superiority. Well said. This is a massive problem.

nswizzle31 1y ago

Appreciate the thoughts - totally agree on those issues, but I don't think the problem is insurmountable. There is a real - albeit latent, maybe - demand for deep friendship and male-only spaces. Everyone recognizes it's an issue, at the very least, and is being more vocal about it in the face of the dramatic enshittification of the internet over the last few years. It just takes too much self-discipline to break out of the internet consistently enough to build meaningful relationships without someone / something taking the initiative. I am sort of trying to replicate that at a larger scale by removing any friction to making plans. Would love to hear your thoughts on if / what you think the solution is.

EGreg 1y ago
Here are my thoughts… well, an article about my thoughts anyway: https://www.laweekly.com/restoring-healthy-communities/ https://www.laweekly.com/restoring-healthy-communities/
Animats 1y ago
> deep friendship and male-only spaces. Gun ranges?
- nsxwolf 1y ago
  Too loud
- mock-possum 1y ago
  > male-only spaces

parpfish 1y ago

> Everyone is so mobile and connected online, they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them one of the unexpected consequences of social media is that people have been conflating being informed with being connected. asking "what have you been up to?" was to be a nice easy opening into a conversation that lead to connection. but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. but a relationship isn't built on updating a list of superficial facts. it's built by having a conversation

mynameisash 1y ago
> thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. This is a huge reason (possibly the top reason) why I quit Facebook. I wasn't getting value from my "connections", and I figured everyone knew, more or less, what I was doing (& I knew what they were doing), so we didn't actually interact. I figured if I was no longer going to be friends with these people, I didn't want a facade. So I quit it, and I don't use the other usual suspects (Instagram, Snapchat, tiktok, etc.) It's great. I actually have some honest to goodness friends IRL that I hug, with whom I talk about real things, etc.
tayo42 1y ago
>but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details. I don't think this is really a big deal. "hey I saw you posted pictures from your trip. How was it" there, conversation started. Social media posts are basically all conversation starters. Assuming you can even remember. I pretty quickly forget people's posts and updates.
- parpfish 1y ago
  The problem is more that you never bother to have the convo where ask how things are going because your in your mind you think you’re all up-to-date.

losteric 1y ago

This is incredibly fatalistic. I lived under all of this, plus two immigrant parents with no community / role modeling, isolated in suburbia as a kid with a chronically online 20s. Yeah that nurturing left its mark. Yet I learned to see it, and learn new patterns. In my 30s I have deep friendships. Younger, older, men, women, nb. Most are still shallow, my energy is limited, but even there sometimes we touch into depth when it comes to relationship or existential stuff. Rewrite your programming.

crtnptofvw 1y ago
For me things like “loneliness epidemic” is fatalistic. End is nigh if some specific stat is not maintained. Giant foot will squish us all. It’s pop-sci, gate-keeping, always be hustling zeitgeist obfuscated by high minded toxic positivity. Media post says there’s an epidemic. Academics come up with a theory of social science in a world where the Executive branch is blatantly manipulating the market. Fed and Congress manipulate employment options, COL through rates and tax code. Predictions of 10-12 billion people by 2100 do not line up with real birth trends. So much of our social truisms are made up cable TV hype that zapped the elders brains into anxious compliance. Narratives propagated in service to a random researchers rent and food money search. Fatalistic towards a social concept is not the same as “launch the nukes, humans suck.” Non-Christians can not believe without going about shooting Christians. Not accepting someone’s dissertation is the same thing.

entropie 1y ago

Your points are valid, but this I do not understand: > Not to mention testosterone levels dropping Why should declining testosterone levels prevent men from socializing and making friends? Logically, it should be the other way around, right?

mensetmanusman 1y ago
It’s just the adders for all the other health metrics declining. Most are due to addiction to pleasure, lack of movement, obesity, etc.
BurningFrog 1y ago
Increased testosterone increases confidence, motivation, goal-oriented behavior, risk-taking and social assertiveness.

JKCalhoun 1y ago

> You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something… I'm real all the time. What am I missing here?

rchaud 1y ago
The 800lb elephant in the room about this whole idea - some people have trouble building friendships because they can't stop themselves from bringing up fringe topics with people they just met, and insisting on having conversations about them.
- latentsea 1y ago
  Elephant's weigh more like 11,000lbs. I think you mean Gorilla? Speaking of Gorillas, have you ever read the book Chimpanzee Politics? Crazy how at the end the other two chimps break into the one chimps cage and literally rip his nuts off. Crazy huh? Oh wait... I'm doing that thing again, aren't I?
  - tbrownaw 1y ago
    It's a very small elephant, like the opposite of a jumbo shrimp.
    - tilne 1y ago
      This is the humor I’m looking for in a men’s club!
    - latentsea 1y ago
      Ah yes, shrimp... the cockroach of the sea. Jumbo sea cockroach.
- nothercastle 1y ago
  I think it’s mostly men just not being that interested in being friends with other men unless there is something tangible to gain. Also 1:1 friendship is hard to maintain if you don’t have a shared 3rd space. A 3rd space allowed you to maintain friendships much more time effectively.

tdb7893 1y ago

"if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of" -> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known. "they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space" -> I've always talked to people at work and also I joined the most socially awkward hobby I've ever seen (historical sword fencing) and people are still very chatty. I also recently started volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitator and find myself just constantly chatting. "Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad" -> I've been friends with a lot of religious people but also non-religious people have strongly held beliefs (I hang out with a lot of vegans and I cannot imagine claiming they are afraid to publicly hold strong beliefs). I think your post just goes to show how different mens' experiences can be because, while I'm sure a lot of men probably can connect with this, my personal experiences could not be more opposite. I think it depends a ton on the sorts of crowds you run in, it almost sounds to me like the people you meet are generally judgy and antisocial but I've found people I'm around to be generally friendly (though I've found many people are happy to chat but are often hard to actually organize to otherwise hang out since people in their 30s are busy and some of my friends have kids now).

rchaud 1y ago
> is this a concern for many men? It's never crossed my mind or been a problem for anyone I've known. Not for me, I have been to plenty of meetups in my city. If you're not liked or don't get along with the others, the worst that can happen is that you'll be politely ostracized. The paranoia about being publicly "cancelled" seems very overblown.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Well we already have people on this page commenting on the demograpic represented on the submitted web site. Yes, in today's world there are almost always people looking to play "gotcha" and will try to pin you as a racist, misogynist, homophobe, or some other sort of bigot or pariah.

bb88 1y ago

Male cops have changed from being thin and fit men (or average man) in the 1960's to large men with muscles, and sometimes roid rage. People earn good money playing video games now (that wasn't the case in the 1980's) or streaming video games. The sports heros children had while growing up used performance enhancing drugs in the 1990's. > Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces ... If your childhood heros take the lazy way to success, why do we need to blame it on the other things? Using your brain is hard, as it turns out. I've always detested parents who saw sports as the only path of success for their children. So often they were disappointed. If the parents spent time and sucked up and learned the math/science/etc their kids were learning, it may have been a better outcome for all involved.

daseiner1 1y ago
Is your comment just in response to the falling testosterone levels point? Because that’s been an ongoing trend since I believe the 80s and has absolutely nothing to do with performance enhancing drugs. Testosterone levels being in healthy range is absolutely critical for men’s health for psychological as well as physical reasons and being in said healthy range is unrelated with sports culture. Whether meathead or whiz kid, physical activity, healthy food, good sleep, limited drugs & alcohol, and minimal or no pornography are all essential parts of reaching one’s peak. Maybe I’m totally misinterpreting your comment but it kinda just seems like a diatribe unrelated to the comment you’re responding to.

wkat4242 1y ago

1) Real friends certainly let you be real. And the scene I frequent deeply frowns on unconsensual photography. Most of the events I go to they sticker all the cameras. I love that. I go there for the people not for Instagram. That's not to say nobody takes pics but they do it in a quiet corner so they don't catch anyone by mistake. It makes it very respectful. The stickers are just a reminder so you don't just start flicking away when you're drunk. It makes everyone feel safer and more genuine. 2) I guess but nothing some quick ice breaking games won't fix 3) In a small town there's much more familiarity yes. But also a much deeper sense of being watched and judged. I can't live with that. Even the small city I lived in was too small for me. Everyone knows everyone's business and constantly gossip behind your back. The nice thing in a big city is meeting new people and finding new places. And the variety. In a small town there's a lot of pressure to conform, eg often you're an outcast if you're not religious. I don't think they're bad but there's little acceptance of people who are different. So what do you do? Pretend. That's not real connection. In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places or events. And you can make real ties there. And even find out about other communities you might fit in. I really hate going to male-exclusive places by the way. There's very few men I have a deep connection with (I'm male) because the whole BS thing that it's frowned upon to talk about feelings. "Men's weekends" just end up with too much beer, macho talk, shooting the shit and hanging in front of the TV watching boring sports or crappy porn. Nothing serious, fun or enlightening. That's my experience with those anyway. I find that exhausting and I always excuse myself from them now. I used to try to fit in but the others would know I hated it anyway so it was awkward. I have much deeper relationships with lady friends. They're more open and less judgemental in general. I feel safer around them. So mixed events are a must for me.

worthless-trash 1y ago
> In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that > are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places. > And you can make real ties there. This is a massive assumption, but maybe 'yourself' is limited to a standard deviation from the accepted mean.
- 1y ago

mock-possum 1y ago

I do think that the kind of people that complain about the male loneliness epidemic are the kind of people who would struggle with those issues- The only way to establish relationships is to be real - so of course if you believe you can’t be real, that’ll be a problem. Relationships kick off and grow and solidify via socializing - so of course if you’ve let your social skills atrophy and believe you have no chance to practice and improve them, that’ll be a problem. Your third point sounds like it’s really just a combination of your first two points, discomfort with being open and honest with others, and discomfort with intentionally socializing with strangers. Of course if you avoid those things to spare yourself the discomfort, you’re also avoiding the opportunity to make friends. The rest of it (testosterone? Co-ed?) sounds like bullshit to me. What I hear you being concerned about is: people don’t see the value in leaving their comfort zone in order to pursue what they want. Those fears you mention about not being real, and not knowing how to socialize, and not being around others, and being forced to go to schools for women (??) just sound like irrational fears to me. None of that stuff will kill you. If being a man is anything, then surely, being a man is facing those kinds of situations and saying “this makes me uncomfortable but it has to be done, I am afraid but I will do it anyway.” For me, that is the male loneliness epidemic, if such a thing even exists - it’s the unwillingness of some men to face their fears and do what needs to be done to make a connection with another human being.

dtdynasty 1y ago
Overall I agree with the point that people don't take the effort to change themselves and connect with another human being. > The only way to establish relationships is to be real Personally, I found emotional dissonance when people tell me this phrase. For a long time, acting like myself has ostracized me from other people and built shallow relationships. It's only when I didn't act like myself and faked it until it became a habit did I build deeper friendships. It's emotionally difficult when your natural way of acting is not accepted.

nathan_compton 1y ago

Don't get me wrong, I hate religion and everything, but America is still basically totally controlled by religious people and in many situations being non-religious is the weird thing. I can't imagine anyone would be feel stigmatized by religious belief in this country.

jaredklewis 1y ago

IME, none of those things are issues that prevent deep friendships in my own life. 1. I've never worried about this. 2. I regularly chat with strangers and acquaintances IRL, though I don't feel it does much to relieve loneliness or cultivate deep friendships. 3. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I've ever worried about being "religious" about something nor judged someone for being so. I would analyze my own life as follows: friendship requires time spent together. I'm a parent with a full time job in a car centric city, which keeps me pretty busy. I may get one day or night a week to go be social or do hobbies or go to a rotary club or whatever. That's a limited amount of time, so there's a corresponding limit on how many friendships I can realistically maintain. Let alone start new friendships. So I feel like "having it all" is not realistic. Everything takes time: working out, eating healthy, having friends, having a family, having a job, having a community, writing hacker news comments, and on and on. Most data shows that Dads now spend significantly more time with their kids than those of previous generations. So I think for people of my cohort (millennial dads) its just a case where we traded time with friends for time with family.

gaws 1y ago

> You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of, and someone else will raise their own profile by mining your impiety to prove their own concern and moral superiority. Well said. This is a massive problem.