3 ms·

Oh, good. Big lithium ion batteries in wooden garages were never a good idea. How does pricing compare to BYD and CATL?

anamexis 1y ago
I'd imagine by the time you have a lithium ion fire, it really doesn't matter what the structure is made of.
toomuchtodo 1y ago
CATL's sodium chemistry (Naxtra) is anticipated to be ~$50/kWh at scale. Faster charge/discharge capability, ~3x cell lifecycle longevity, reliable cold performance (@ ~-30C), sodium abundance vs lithium, lower risk of thermal runaway; weight and density are non issues in this application. https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html https://electrek.co/2025/04/21/catl-unveils-ev-battery-charges-as-fast-as-pumping-gas/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/21/catl-unveils-ev-battery-charg... https://www.ess-news.com/2024/11/28/new-sodium-ion-developments-from-catl-byd-huawei/ https://www.ess-news.com/2024/11/28/new-sodium-ion-developme...
- ortusdux 1y ago
  I'd pour a slab and have a shed sized battery delivered if the $/kwh and cell longevity was favorable enough.
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Keep your wallet close, that time is rapidly approaching. Global demand for energy storage at this price and scale is voracious, and supply is spinning up to meet it. https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... https://www.iea.org/commentaries/the-battery-industry-has-entered-a-new-phase https://www.iea.org/commentaries/the-battery-industry-has-en... https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-soared-53-in-2024/ https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-soar... https://rhomotion.com/news/global-bess-deployments-surpass-expectations-in-2024/ https://rhomotion.com/news/global-bess-deployments-surpass-e...
    - toomuchtodo 1y ago
      How electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44161921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44161921 - June 2025
  - conradev 1y ago
    The world is going to be a very different place because this is going to be possible soon. There’s a startup doing this at substations. They can network these batteries and then use the utilities’ extra wire capacity to redistribute energy throughout the grid. The other flipping points are when these outcompete the all-in cost of making a new gas peaker plant and then the cost of bothering to turn existing plants on.
    - ortusdux 1y ago
      I guess my point is that cars and phones drove battery research towards energy density, but I still have three cord of firewood in an 8*12ft shed at the end of my driveway. Energy density is my last concern.
      - unwind 1y ago
        For those of us outside the US and used to other units, a cord [1] is of course 128 cubic feet or roughly 3.62 cubic meters. The wood is supposed to be well stacked (aligned, parallel, touching and compact) and if so, one cord is a pile measuring e.g. 4x8x4 feet. Wow, three cord is "a lot", in other words. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit)
        ortusdux 1y ago
        Cords of wood are usually around 18 million BTU of potential energy, which is 5000+ kWh. Wood stove efficiencies are all over the place, but modern ones are in the 70% range. https://www.kumastoves.com/content/page/EPA https://www.kumastoves.com/content/page/EPA
      - conradev 1y ago
        Yeah, that makes sense! The drive has been not only for higher density, but also lower cost. Sodium batteries were investigated for cost reasons (to avoid the Lithium) and it turns out that density isn’t as good (for now), but that’s okay for some cars and great for stationary storage. Enough demand to drive innovation. A cord of wood is hard to beat on cost! My understanding on sodium is that it’s still early days. Most “sodium” batteries shipping today are hybrids with lithium (two sections, one bms) with poor cycle lifetimes, so there is a lot to figure out still. I haven’t personally seen or heard about CATL’s sodium batteries in the real world yet.
brianwawok 1y ago
Worse idea than pipes full of explosive gas or water?
- librasteve 1y ago
  explosive water? Tritium
- BobaFloutist 1y ago
  We've been doing that a lot longer, and have established safety standards. It's true that gas is more primitive and probably ultimately harder to render fully safe than batteries, but that doesn't mean batteries are as of yet competitive (in terms of reliable safety).
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
conradev 1y ago
It's a great idea if you use well-designed batteries! I imagine it is pretty hard to get a BYD Blade to ignite, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Blade_battery#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Blade_battery#Safety
- Animats 1y ago
  That's the point. You really don't want large residential lithium-ion installations. Search "Powerwall fires".
  - 542354234235 1y ago
    Search "house gas line explosion". Also, every electric vehicle in every garage is already a “large residential lithium-ion installation”. At least a house battery, once installed, doesn’t move and is always in a controlled environment.
yencabulator 1y ago
LiFePO4 is technically still lithium-ion but a lot safer than what's in phones and laptops.

I'd imagine by the time you have a lithium ion fire, it really doesn't matter what the structure is made of.

CATL's sodium chemistry (Naxtra) is anticipated to be ~$50/kWh at scale. Faster charge/discharge capability, ~3x cell lifecycle longevity, reliable cold performance (@ ~-30C), sodium abundance vs lithium, lower risk of thermal runaway; weight and density are non issues in this application. https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html https://www.catl.com/en/news/6401.html https://electrek.co/2025/04/21/catl-unveils-ev-battery-charges-as-fast-as-pumping-gas/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/21/catl-unveils-ev-battery-charg... https://www.ess-news.com/2024/11/28/new-sodium-ion-developments-from-catl-byd-huawei/ https://www.ess-news.com/2024/11/28/new-sodium-ion-developme...

ortusdux 1y ago
I'd pour a slab and have a shed sized battery delivered if the $/kwh and cell longevity was favorable enough.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Keep your wallet close, that time is rapidly approaching. Global demand for energy storage at this price and scale is voracious, and supply is spinning up to meet it. https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... https://www.iea.org/commentaries/the-battery-industry-has-entered-a-new-phase https://www.iea.org/commentaries/the-battery-industry-has-en... https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-soared-53-in-2024/ https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-soar... https://rhomotion.com/news/global-bess-deployments-surpass-expectations-in-2024/ https://rhomotion.com/news/global-bess-deployments-surpass-e...
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    How electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44161921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44161921 - June 2025
- conradev 1y ago
  The world is going to be a very different place because this is going to be possible soon. There’s a startup doing this at substations. They can network these batteries and then use the utilities’ extra wire capacity to redistribute energy throughout the grid. The other flipping points are when these outcompete the all-in cost of making a new gas peaker plant and then the cost of bothering to turn existing plants on.
  - ortusdux 1y ago
    I guess my point is that cars and phones drove battery research towards energy density, but I still have three cord of firewood in an 8*12ft shed at the end of my driveway. Energy density is my last concern.
    - unwind 1y ago
      For those of us outside the US and used to other units, a cord [1] is of course 128 cubic feet or roughly 3.62 cubic meters. The wood is supposed to be well stacked (aligned, parallel, touching and compact) and if so, one cord is a pile measuring e.g. 4x8x4 feet. Wow, three cord is "a lot", in other words. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cord_(unit)
      - ortusdux 1y ago
        Cords of wood are usually around 18 million BTU of potential energy, which is 5000+ kWh. Wood stove efficiencies are all over the place, but modern ones are in the 70% range. https://www.kumastoves.com/content/page/EPA https://www.kumastoves.com/content/page/EPA
    - conradev 1y ago
      Yeah, that makes sense! The drive has been not only for higher density, but also lower cost. Sodium batteries were investigated for cost reasons (to avoid the Lithium) and it turns out that density isn’t as good (for now), but that’s okay for some cars and great for stationary storage. Enough demand to drive innovation. A cord of wood is hard to beat on cost! My understanding on sodium is that it’s still early days. Most “sodium” batteries shipping today are hybrids with lithium (two sections, one bms) with poor cycle lifetimes, so there is a lot to figure out still. I haven’t personally seen or heard about CATL’s sodium batteries in the real world yet.

brianwawok 1y ago

Worse idea than pipes full of explosive gas or water?

librasteve 1y ago
explosive water? Tritium
BobaFloutist 1y ago
We've been doing that a lot longer, and have established safety standards. It's true that gas is more primitive and probably ultimately harder to render fully safe than batteries, but that doesn't mean batteries are as of yet competitive (in terms of reliable safety).

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

conradev 1y ago

It's a great idea if you use well-designed batteries! I imagine it is pretty hard to get a BYD Blade to ignite, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Blade_battery#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Blade_battery#Safety

Animats 1y ago
That's the point. You really don't want large residential lithium-ion installations. Search "Powerwall fires".
- 542354234235 1y ago
  Search "house gas line explosion". Also, every electric vehicle in every garage is already a “large residential lithium-ion installation”. At least a house battery, once installed, doesn’t move and is always in a controlled environment.

yencabulator 1y ago

LiFePO4 is technically still lithium-ion but a lot safer than what's in phones and laptops.