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Great, here's a discussion I've wanted to have for a long time. I very much appreciate the effort, but quoting yesterday's phk article, "Quality happens only w

Great, here's a discussion I've wanted to have for a long time. I very much appreciate the effort, but quoting yesterday's phk article, "Quality happens only when someone is responsible for it". In another yesterday's news, on Reddit they are starting to build yet another online university. Don't take me wrong, I actively search for information on the Internet, follow many tutorials and even wrote some. I absolutely advocate for researching something on the net before buying a book. But when it comes to university-like education, well, only Universities currently provide it. Some months ago I looked for courses on iOS programming for a personal project. After following some video tutorials, HOWTOs on blogs, and even "free courses", the only thing that has really taught me anything has been Stanford's iOS course. And I can't even be sure if I learned everything, because nobody graded me. If nobody is grading you (a professor, a tutor, a supervisor, a boss, a customer), how do you know if you education is correct? "Online universities" already exist. There is one very close to home[1] and its degrees are as accepted as any other regular university. The point is, you have to pay for them. You have to pay for the professors to prepare the courses, to correct the exams, to write material for you. I would honestly love to hear from somebody who has powerful arguments which can support a free, high quality, online university-like studies. I just can't think of how that is possible. Anything else is, at least, an abuse of the word "University" [1] http://www.uoc.edu/portal/en/index.html http://www.uoc.edu/portal/en/index.html

lesterbuck 14y ago
I have taken several of these online courses, and I think we will look back in fifty years and see an inflection point in massively distributing higher education happened in the fall of 2011. The margin of this web page does not contain enough space for me to explain how much I disagree with the general comments expressed here. And I can't even be sure if I learned everything, because nobody graded me. If nobody is grading you (a professor, a tutor, a supervisor, a boss, a customer), how do you know if you education is correct? Really? I mean, really? If I ever think I don't understand something, it's rather easy to turn to someone next to me and try to teach them. Or any number of dozens of tactics to make sure my knowledge map is self-consistent. I'd imagine that needing someone to grade one's work must be one of the most constricting world views there can be. How can you come up with radical new ideas if they have to be graded by some knowledge gate-keeper? What if you are thinking way beyond your "grader's" level?
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  Radical new ideas are graded by the market. Want a seed round? Your idea will be graded by angels. Want a venture round? Your idea will be graded by VCs. Want some revenue? Graded by users. Want to IPO? Graded by mutual funds analysts. I bet there are lots of people watching videos learning some stuff right now, but not fully learning anything. Is it good? Is it bad? I have no idea, but without tests I think it is really hard to know if you are really learning or just think you are.
  - lesterbuck 14y ago
    If I don't breathe, the environment will "grade" me with death. Now, let's expand our view just a wee bit and move up seven levels in Maslow's hierarchy. Do you really think fully actualized people are paying all that much attention to things like markets? Great poets and writers have labored in obscurity, died unknown, only to be discovered a hundred years later. Now consider the unknown numbers of people just as good, still unknown. Did they waste their lives because "the market" told them they were worthless? Galileo was told, rather directly, that "the market" did not value his work, to the point of death threats. Did that in any way devalue his knowledge or understanding?
    - wtvanhest 14y ago
      To be honest, I was never a big fan of the concept of fully actualized people. I always felt like it was perpetrated by those that teach since it fits their lifestyle. Since that is the only part of the pyramid that is interesting to most people, I view the entire pyramid as unnecessary to teach at all. I have no clue what Galileo was truly after, but I would guess it was scientific discovery and the fame and wealth that could possibly come along with it. After all, if he truly didn’t care about fame and wealth and he was only after full actualization he could have just written a bunch of books but never told anyone or published them. Why do great poets and writers labor in obscurity, then be discovered hundreds of years later? I would guess one of two things happen in those cases. 1) they lack people skill necessary to get their work out, 2) their art was not appreciated at the time and is for some reason now appreciated. Since they didn’t benefit from their work, I view them and their ideas as having zero worth after considering that value that is created far in to the future is not worth as much as value created today.
lmm 14y ago
Here in the UK we don't have the same tradition of ongoing assessment that American universities seem to have. For my Mathematics degree at the University of Cambridge, about as highly respected as they come, your grade is determined entirely[1] by the end-of-year exams; four three-hour exams each year. Frequently the very best students won't bother to attend lectures, supervisions or any formal teaching, and that's absolutely fine[2]; as long as you pass the exams, you get the degree[3]. It would be entirely plausible for a student to learn the course solely from free, online sources and get the degree solely on the results of that. You still need that set of high-quality exams and marking, but those could be provided a lot cheaper than the cost of a full university education, even a "traditional online university" (in so far as such a concept makes sense). [1] Strictly in the second and third years you can opt to replace around half an exam with a programming project [2] At an administrative level you should keep your director of studies and your tutor happy that you are going to be able to pass the exams; usually this is on the basis of your supervision reports, but it doesn't have to be. If they don't think you're going to pass they will advise you to drop out, but I've not heard of anyone being compelled to do so [3] Technically you are also required to have spent a certain number of nights and eaten a certain number of dinners in college, but I don't believe this is enforced
dave_sullivan 14y ago
I think you're arguing that a free online course will never be able to match the quality of a traditional paid in-person college course. If so, I think there's more to consider. Coursera's courses have been very high quality, and your work is graded. Those courses only have to be recorded once to be enjoyed by an unlimited number of people. You don't get those economies of scale with traditional education--of course you don't get nearly as much access to the instructor either. I think that's generally a trade off worth making. But even more, quality will always be all over the place in either case. One (or a bunch) of crappy classes doesn't mean that all classes suck--online or off. So I don't know that it's valid to even include quality level in the discussion. I will say, however, that a high quality online class has the opportunity to reach more people than a high quality in-person class--I consider that a big win. Then there's the issue of self teaching. I'm largely self taught and I've always preferred it that way. Give me something to do and I'll figure out how to do it. That might mean reading a book, asking someone for help, or taking a class. By far, the fastest way for me to learn something is either with a book or a good online class and putting it into practice quickly. Traditional education has been-by far-the slowest way for me to get good at something. It sounds like you prefer in class learning, which is fine, but there's absolutely good content out there (and more being made) and I think it's a net win in general over the traditional university model, particularly for someone like me that prefers to learn on my own.
mnicole 14y ago
UReddit was painful to look at. They really need to get it together before branding themselves under one of the most popular sites on the web. As an example, the first course I looked into had zero follow-up courses or suggestions for the students to keep learning past the initial introductory lessons despite comments asking for them (the 'professor' said he had no plans to take it any further). The documentation was overly complicated for the sake of sounding smart and the text was written in some awful thin, monospaced font. I didn't go through it enough to see if it was certifiable, but I'd venture to guess that if the author couldn't even bother to include supplementary resources, they probably aren't suited to teach. There wasn't even a preface about who the professor was, why they were qualified, and links to some stuff they've done. For a project so ambitious and trusting of the capacities of volunteers, they need to require that these people commit. Outline two or three courses, meet content deadlines before the course is public, have them vetted by people in the appropriate subreddits and then offer a pool those students can wade in afterwards to continue sharing their progress with each other and to act as a promotional tool for the courses/professor. Is anyone doing truly crowdsourced education?
endlessvoid94 14y ago
I completely, 100% agree. I can't imagine a more lonely, inhumane way to learn than with 20,000 other students and nobody responsible. We're fixing this at Bloc[1]. Take a course with 10-20 other students, one-on-one skype sessions with a mentor and google hangout with your peers. It's actually fun. Go figure. [1] http://www.bloc.io http://www.bloc.io
tzs 14y ago
Have you looked at Udacity, Coursera, and MitX/EdX? The courses in all of them are graded, although by computer rather than by human. I haven't taken any MitX/EdX courses yet, but for both Udacity and Coursera there have also been forums for each course where students got additional feedback on their work. For instance, if you didn't understand something, you'd ask in the forums and other students, or a teaching assistant, or sometimes even the professor, would reply. Knowing if your education is correct is not a problem with these courses.
plafl 14y ago
If nobody is grading you (a professor, a tutor, a supervisor, a boss, a customer), how do you know if you education is correct? Your education is correct when you are sure about your education. If you do an exercise, and you are not sure you did it right, then it means you need to practice more. Having the answer to the exercises is useful to accelerate your learning, but you don't need anyone to tell when you are prepared.
Turing_Machine 14y ago
"And I can't even be sure if I learned everything, because nobody graded me." How would you know if you learned everything, even with a grade? Any course worth its salt is going to contain way too much material to test in full detail on a two-hour final exam.

lesterbuck 14y ago

I have taken several of these online courses, and I think we will look back in fifty years and see an inflection point in massively distributing higher education happened in the fall of 2011. The margin of this web page does not contain enough space for me to explain how much I disagree with the general comments expressed here. And I can't even be sure if I learned everything, because nobody graded me. If nobody is grading you (a professor, a tutor, a supervisor, a boss, a customer), how do you know if you education is correct? Really? I mean, really? If I ever think I don't understand something, it's rather easy to turn to someone next to me and try to teach them. Or any number of dozens of tactics to make sure my knowledge map is self-consistent. I'd imagine that needing someone to grade one's work must be one of the most constricting world views there can be. How can you come up with radical new ideas if they have to be graded by some knowledge gate-keeper? What if you are thinking way beyond your "grader's" level?

wtvanhest 14y ago
Radical new ideas are graded by the market. Want a seed round? Your idea will be graded by angels. Want a venture round? Your idea will be graded by VCs. Want some revenue? Graded by users. Want to IPO? Graded by mutual funds analysts. I bet there are lots of people watching videos learning some stuff right now, but not fully learning anything. Is it good? Is it bad? I have no idea, but without tests I think it is really hard to know if you are really learning or just think you are.
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  If I don't breathe, the environment will "grade" me with death. Now, let's expand our view just a wee bit and move up seven levels in Maslow's hierarchy. Do you really think fully actualized people are paying all that much attention to things like markets? Great poets and writers have labored in obscurity, died unknown, only to be discovered a hundred years later. Now consider the unknown numbers of people just as good, still unknown. Did they waste their lives because "the market" told them they were worthless? Galileo was told, rather directly, that "the market" did not value his work, to the point of death threats. Did that in any way devalue his knowledge or understanding?
  - wtvanhest 14y ago
    To be honest, I was never a big fan of the concept of fully actualized people. I always felt like it was perpetrated by those that teach since it fits their lifestyle. Since that is the only part of the pyramid that is interesting to most people, I view the entire pyramid as unnecessary to teach at all. I have no clue what Galileo was truly after, but I would guess it was scientific discovery and the fame and wealth that could possibly come along with it. After all, if he truly didn’t care about fame and wealth and he was only after full actualization he could have just written a bunch of books but never told anyone or published them. Why do great poets and writers labor in obscurity, then be discovered hundreds of years later? I would guess one of two things happen in those cases. 1) they lack people skill necessary to get their work out, 2) their art was not appreciated at the time and is for some reason now appreciated. Since they didn’t benefit from their work, I view them and their ideas as having zero worth after considering that value that is created far in to the future is not worth as much as value created today.

lmm 14y ago

Here in the UK we don't have the same tradition of ongoing assessment that American universities seem to have. For my Mathematics degree at the University of Cambridge, about as highly respected as they come, your grade is determined entirely[1] by the end-of-year exams; four three-hour exams each year. Frequently the very best students won't bother to attend lectures, supervisions or any formal teaching, and that's absolutely fine[2]; as long as you pass the exams, you get the degree[3]. It would be entirely plausible for a student to learn the course solely from free, online sources and get the degree solely on the results of that. You still need that set of high-quality exams and marking, but those could be provided a lot cheaper than the cost of a full university education, even a "traditional online university" (in so far as such a concept makes sense). [1] Strictly in the second and third years you can opt to replace around half an exam with a programming project [2] At an administrative level you should keep your director of studies and your tutor happy that you are going to be able to pass the exams; usually this is on the basis of your supervision reports, but it doesn't have to be. If they don't think you're going to pass they will advise you to drop out, but I've not heard of anyone being compelled to do so [3] Technically you are also required to have spent a certain number of nights and eaten a certain number of dinners in college, but I don't believe this is enforced

dave_sullivan 14y ago

I think you're arguing that a free online course will never be able to match the quality of a traditional paid in-person college course. If so, I think there's more to consider. Coursera's courses have been very high quality, and your work is graded. Those courses only have to be recorded once to be enjoyed by an unlimited number of people. You don't get those economies of scale with traditional education--of course you don't get nearly as much access to the instructor either. I think that's generally a trade off worth making. But even more, quality will always be all over the place in either case. One (or a bunch) of crappy classes doesn't mean that all classes suck--online or off. So I don't know that it's valid to even include quality level in the discussion. I will say, however, that a high quality online class has the opportunity to reach more people than a high quality in-person class--I consider that a big win. Then there's the issue of self teaching. I'm largely self taught and I've always preferred it that way. Give me something to do and I'll figure out how to do it. That might mean reading a book, asking someone for help, or taking a class. By far, the fastest way for me to learn something is either with a book or a good online class and putting it into practice quickly. Traditional education has been-by far-the slowest way for me to get good at something. It sounds like you prefer in class learning, which is fine, but there's absolutely good content out there (and more being made) and I think it's a net win in general over the traditional university model, particularly for someone like me that prefers to learn on my own.

mnicole 14y ago

UReddit was painful to look at. They really need to get it together before branding themselves under one of the most popular sites on the web. As an example, the first course I looked into had zero follow-up courses or suggestions for the students to keep learning past the initial introductory lessons despite comments asking for them (the 'professor' said he had no plans to take it any further). The documentation was overly complicated for the sake of sounding smart and the text was written in some awful thin, monospaced font. I didn't go through it enough to see if it was certifiable, but I'd venture to guess that if the author couldn't even bother to include supplementary resources, they probably aren't suited to teach. There wasn't even a preface about who the professor was, why they were qualified, and links to some stuff they've done. For a project so ambitious and trusting of the capacities of volunteers, they need to require that these people commit. Outline two or three courses, meet content deadlines before the course is public, have them vetted by people in the appropriate subreddits and then offer a pool those students can wade in afterwards to continue sharing their progress with each other and to act as a promotional tool for the courses/professor. Is anyone doing truly crowdsourced education?

endlessvoid94 14y ago

I completely, 100% agree. I can't imagine a more lonely, inhumane way to learn than with 20,000 other students and nobody responsible. We're fixing this at Bloc[1]. Take a course with 10-20 other students, one-on-one skype sessions with a mentor and google hangout with your peers. It's actually fun. Go figure. [1] http://www.bloc.io http://www.bloc.io

tzs 14y ago

Have you looked at Udacity, Coursera, and MitX/EdX? The courses in all of them are graded, although by computer rather than by human. I haven't taken any MitX/EdX courses yet, but for both Udacity and Coursera there have also been forums for each course where students got additional feedback on their work. For instance, if you didn't understand something, you'd ask in the forums and other students, or a teaching assistant, or sometimes even the professor, would reply. Knowing if your education is correct is not a problem with these courses.

plafl 14y ago

If nobody is grading you (a professor, a tutor, a supervisor, a boss, a customer), how do you know if you education is correct? Your education is correct when you are sure about your education. If you do an exercise, and you are not sure you did it right, then it means you need to practice more. Having the answer to the exercises is useful to accelerate your learning, but you don't need anyone to tell when you are prepared.

Turing_Machine 14y ago

"And I can't even be sure if I learned everything, because nobody graded me." How would you know if you learned everything, even with a grade? Any course worth its salt is going to contain way too much material to test in full detail on a two-hour final exam.