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> Statistics and wagering aside, IMO, he'd fair poorly (like the previous visit). If I remember correctly...his first visit was prophesied to end exactly as it

> Statistics and wagering aside, IMO, he'd fair poorly (like the previous visit). If I remember correctly...his first visit was prophesied to end exactly as it did. His next visit is prophesied to be a little different - to paraphrase...he is coming with an army to make war on the beast and all [humans] who follow him. Instead of a spotless robe like earlier depictions - this robe is drenched in blood, and he has a sword coming out of his mouth. Here's the passage immediately following description of this second coming(Revelations 19). “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” I don't think this visit is supposed to be like the previous one. I strongly encourage you all read this book(the bible) and take it to heart. You aren't my friend, or someone that I know - but it would give me no pleasure at all to know you were spending eternity in hell. We don't get down seeing people suffer, or "you'll all be sorry when you see I'm right!!!" style feelings. If those true believers seem like a bunch of elitist jerks who are always putting you down instead of helping you up, those are /NOT/ true believers. Those are true assholes.

Tijdreiziger 1y ago
But what evidence supports the theory of heaven and hell? I mean, according to the Hindus and Buddhists, we’ll be reincarnated rather than going to heaven/hell. We could read the Bible, or the Qur’ān, or the Vēdas, or the Buddhist scriptures, or any other religious text… but how would we know whether any of them holds truth?
- vkou 1y ago
  That's the whole point of faith. You're supposed to believe despite evidence.
  - philsnow 1y ago
    (Which is why, of faith, hope, and charity, only charity will remain with us in heaven / in the beatific vision)
  - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
    Why should you believe despite evidence?
    - vkou 1y ago
      Because if you don't, you'll face social ostracism, physical censure, and a promise of deferred spiritual punishment. When those pressures or promises of rewards aren't present, people rarely stumble into any particular religion.
- jagged-chisel 1y ago
  You have faith that your choice is the right one!
  - dangus 1y ago
    There are approximately 10,000 religions in the world. What brain damage do I have to receive in order to believe that I have any realistic statistical chance of picking the right one?
    - em-bee 1y ago
      you don't pick one at random. you pick one that makes sense. what makes sense for example is the positive impact a religion has on the world. which religion is doing the most good? that alone will narrow down the selection to a few dozen if that many. besides the good it does, another question could be: what makes sense to you? which religion has the better answers to explain the world in which we live in today? take the issues and questions that matter to you, and then look at the answers and see if they are satisfactory. keep searching until you find the answers you seek.
      - freedomben 1y ago
        This is the "by their fruits you shall know them" argument (which I think is among the stronger arguments for the record), but I've personally used this to try and find a "correct" religion and what I discovered (personally of course) is that there is good and bad in essentially every religion. Using this as a standard is basically impossible. But if you took it at a high macro level and did narrow down to a few dozen, those are still terrible odds. If I have a 1 in 36 chance of picking the wrong religion and being damned, I think we need a better standard of evidence to narrow this field a bit. Unless of course you believe that a loving (some would say omni-benevolent) God would think it's reasonable to torture 97% of his children who are actively searching him out, just because they picked the wrong church. (that's not even considering all the others of course).
        em-bee 1y ago
dangus 1y ago
> I strongly encourage you all read this book(the bible) and take it to heart. You aren't my friend, or someone that I know - but it would give me no pleasure at all to know you were spending eternity in hell. IMO, you are also an elitist jerk by telling non-believers that they will be going to hell for not believing your religion, a religion which 69% of the entire world does not believe. What kind of god creates beings only to punish the majority of them with hellfire? Why would god allow alternative religions to be created just to "trick" his creations into believing the wrong thing? And why would I want to worship that god if that's all true?
- josephcsible 1y ago
  > IMO, you are also an elitist jerk by telling non-believers that they will be going to hell for not believing your religion, a religion which 69% of the entire world does not believe. Catholics don't believe that you have to be Catholic to go to heaven. In fact, believing that you do is explicitly condemned as a heresy (Feeneyism).
  - freedomben 1y ago
    Interesting! So in Catholicism, what are the belief requirements? Would that mean that some Protestants could go to heaven even if they've never had (Catholic) communion? (Genuine question)
    - josephcsible 1y ago
      https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#:~:text=%22Outside%20the%20Church%20there%20is%20no%20salvation%22 https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#:~:text=%22...
      - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
        This lengthy text is somewhat impenetrable (at least to a non-Christian).
    - 1y ago
krapp 1y ago
I propose a corollary to Godwin's Law whereby as any internet discussion of religion progresses, the chances of a Christian trying to proselytize approaches 1. Call it God-Botherers Law.

Tijdreiziger 1y ago

But what evidence supports the theory of heaven and hell? I mean, according to the Hindus and Buddhists, we’ll be reincarnated rather than going to heaven/hell. We could read the Bible, or the Qur’ān, or the Vēdas, or the Buddhist scriptures, or any other religious text… but how would we know whether any of them holds truth?

vkou 1y ago
That's the whole point of faith. You're supposed to believe despite evidence.
- philsnow 1y ago
  (Which is why, of faith, hope, and charity, only charity will remain with us in heaven / in the beatific vision)
- Tijdreiziger 1y ago
  Why should you believe despite evidence?
  - vkou 1y ago
    Because if you don't, you'll face social ostracism, physical censure, and a promise of deferred spiritual punishment. When those pressures or promises of rewards aren't present, people rarely stumble into any particular religion.
jagged-chisel 1y ago
You have faith that your choice is the right one!
- dangus 1y ago
  There are approximately 10,000 religions in the world. What brain damage do I have to receive in order to believe that I have any realistic statistical chance of picking the right one?
  - em-bee 1y ago
    you don't pick one at random. you pick one that makes sense. what makes sense for example is the positive impact a religion has on the world. which religion is doing the most good? that alone will narrow down the selection to a few dozen if that many. besides the good it does, another question could be: what makes sense to you? which religion has the better answers to explain the world in which we live in today? take the issues and questions that matter to you, and then look at the answers and see if they are satisfactory. keep searching until you find the answers you seek.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      This is the "by their fruits you shall know them" argument (which I think is among the stronger arguments for the record), but I've personally used this to try and find a "correct" religion and what I discovered (personally of course) is that there is good and bad in essentially every religion. Using this as a standard is basically impossible. But if you took it at a high macro level and did narrow down to a few dozen, those are still terrible odds. If I have a 1 in 36 chance of picking the wrong religion and being damned, I think we need a better standard of evidence to narrow this field a bit. Unless of course you believe that a loving (some would say omni-benevolent) God would think it's reasonable to torture 97% of his children who are actively searching him out, just because they picked the wrong church. (that's not even considering all the others of course).
      - em-bee 1y ago

dangus 1y ago

> I strongly encourage you all read this book(the bible) and take it to heart. You aren't my friend, or someone that I know - but it would give me no pleasure at all to know you were spending eternity in hell. IMO, you are also an elitist jerk by telling non-believers that they will be going to hell for not believing your religion, a religion which 69% of the entire world does not believe. What kind of god creates beings only to punish the majority of them with hellfire? Why would god allow alternative religions to be created just to "trick" his creations into believing the wrong thing? And why would I want to worship that god if that's all true?

josephcsible 1y ago
> IMO, you are also an elitist jerk by telling non-believers that they will be going to hell for not believing your religion, a religion which 69% of the entire world does not believe. Catholics don't believe that you have to be Catholic to go to heaven. In fact, believing that you do is explicitly condemned as a heresy (Feeneyism).
- freedomben 1y ago
  Interesting! So in Catholicism, what are the belief requirements? Would that mean that some Protestants could go to heaven even if they've never had (Catholic) communion? (Genuine question)
  - josephcsible 1y ago
    https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#:~:text=%22Outside%20the%20Church%20there%20is%20no%20salvation%22 https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM#:~:text=%22...
    - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
      This lengthy text is somewhat impenetrable (at least to a non-Christian).
  - 1y ago

krapp 1y ago

I propose a corollary to Godwin's Law whereby as any internet discussion of religion progresses, the chances of a Christian trying to proselytize approaches 1. Call it God-Botherers Law.