4 ms·

Unless God actually exists and revealed himself to them. Obviously, you are free to not believe that, but believing that goes along with believing what you are

Unless God actually exists and revealed himself to them. Obviously, you are free to not believe that, but believing that goes along with believing what you are dismissing.

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
He revealed himself to them and only them, ignoring the rest of humanity all over the globe. In all the universe he chose just earth for his people, and over all of earth, he just chose a tiny section to reveal himself to. Omniscient and omnipotent but a very human scale for his messaging.
- sroussey 1y ago
  Also at a time those humans also believed the Earth was flat.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  You are reading too hard into the specifics. The general themes are remarkably conserved across faiths. Even between monotheistic and polytheistic faiths, we see what is a pantheon of gods in the latter become just different forms of the monotheistic god in the former. The same myths when they are distilled. Zeus is Yahweh is Ahura Mazda is Indra is Thor is Itzamna is Baiame, fundamentally all the creator sky god. Of course the most ardent supporters of each faith might be blind to this parallelism, but it is obvious from an outsiders perspective.
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    Sure, if you squint enough everything looks the same, but then you can't see. For instance, in your example Thor is not a creator sky god, and he's limited. He's not even the leader of his pantheon. Zeus, another famous sky god, is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Yahweh, especially the later Christian incarnation of him, is pretty unique if you compare him to polytheistic religions.
  - monetus 1y ago
    The lack of originality is proof that God exists. First time I've heard that tbh.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      I've heard it many times, but it also assumes that there aren't other ways to explain similarities, such as cultural cross-exchange of ideas (which happens prolifically even in the Bible, hence why Israel is supposed to avoid inter-marriage and the like), and the fact that most myths begin to explain observed phenomena, which itself tends to be very similar and repetitive. I personally think this is an extremely weak argument that is only compelling if you have already presupposed that God revealed himself and his revelations were bastardized by civilizations around the world. It's classic Confirmation Bias.
- fortran77 1y ago
  > He revealed himself to them and only them, ignoring the rest of humanity all over the globe That's absolutely not true. First of all, there was an enormous crowd of people: 600,000 families--millions of people--who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai. And secondly, G-d offered the Torah to all the peoples of the world. (https://www.sefaria.org/Sifrei_Devarim.343.2?lang=bi https://www.sefaria.org/Sifrei_Devarim.343.2?lang=bi) It's a fundamental principle of Judaism that all righteous people will be in the world to come, unlike Christianity. All that being said, I will not be wagering that "Jesus" will come again.
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    > That's absolutely not true. First of all, there was an enormous crowd of people: 600,000 families--millions of people--who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai. It's true that it was very regional, within the reach of a group of people's ability to communicate. > And secondly, G-d offered the Torah to all the peoples of the world. Did he? Did all the other cultures of the world about that time simply not answer the door?
  - wat10000 1y ago
    And how do we know that millions of people received this revelation? We only “know” this if we take this particular tribe’s myths to be fact.
- CyrsBel 1y ago
  Who said he ignored the rest of humanity? That's not what the record shows. Most people know about God. Who said that in all the universe he chose just earth? You're assuming too much about the motivations. I do not see what the issue is with a "very human scale" for messaging. That's...how you communicate with humans.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    “ That's...how you communicate with humans.” Right. Why would the omnipotent creator of the universe communicate the same way I do?
    - ivape 1y ago
      Why do we sometimes bend down to look at a dog or child? To look them in the eye, at their level.
      - paulryanrogers 1y ago
        We aren't all powerful. We can't reach into their brain or ear to communicate. Supposedly God is all powerful. And doesn't speak directly to everyone, just certain ones.
        CyrsBel 1y ago
        Not everyone cares or listens. But the original point of the question you were responding to was that it seems strange that God would communicate with people in an intelligible or familiar or baser way. So being all powerful is irrelevant, because if we do it then why couldn't or wouldn't God do it? There's nothing wrong with communicating in the way that the targets in question will comprehend. That's the point of communication.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - 1y ago
- ivape 1y ago
  When Michael Jackson does a concert, it’s really only in a few locations. It’s up to the world to spread it. As others have mentioned, he could show up in the sky like Mufasa, but he could also just brain wash you in an instant and fix all of it. Faith is a concept, like so many other concepts. It is a unique creation that has properties, one of them is that it’s not meant to be provable that easily.
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    Yeah, I don't really buy that. God revealed himself directly to Moses and Moses was still able to ignore him or go against his wishes and still had to come to faith on his own terms. Both faith and free will are a great bottomless pits to throw any philosophical or logical incongruities into. > When Michael Jackson does a concert, it’s really only in a few locations. It’s up to the world to spread it. In this example, what is up to the world to spread for Michael Jackson? Is god a singular entity with a specific location? I'm sure Michael would have happily shown up in every place on earth if he could have sold tickets.
  - wat10000 1y ago
    "...it’s not meant to be provable that easily." If ever there were a post-hoc rationalization, this is it. It's funny how the faithful are generally happy to use any evidence that they think supports the faith, but once it gets too difficult then suddenly it's not supposed to have too much evidence for it.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      When constructing a house of cards, it's important to not make it look too easy.
wat10000 1y ago
Sure, but in that case the supposed fact that God revealed himself to this particular tribe is the key thing supporting the belief, not "reality is unexplainable, it must be something else."

Unless God actually exists and revealed himself to them. Obviously, you are free to not believe that, but believing that goes along with believing what you are dismissing.

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago

He revealed himself to them and only them, ignoring the rest of humanity all over the globe. In all the universe he chose just earth for his people, and over all of earth, he just chose a tiny section to reveal himself to. Omniscient and omnipotent but a very human scale for his messaging.

sroussey 1y ago
Also at a time those humans also believed the Earth was flat.
kjkjadksj 1y ago
You are reading too hard into the specifics. The general themes are remarkably conserved across faiths. Even between monotheistic and polytheistic faiths, we see what is a pantheon of gods in the latter become just different forms of the monotheistic god in the former. The same myths when they are distilled. Zeus is Yahweh is Ahura Mazda is Indra is Thor is Itzamna is Baiame, fundamentally all the creator sky god. Of course the most ardent supporters of each faith might be blind to this parallelism, but it is obvious from an outsiders perspective.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  Sure, if you squint enough everything looks the same, but then you can't see. For instance, in your example Thor is not a creator sky god, and he's limited. He's not even the leader of his pantheon. Zeus, another famous sky god, is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Yahweh, especially the later Christian incarnation of him, is pretty unique if you compare him to polytheistic religions.
- monetus 1y ago
  The lack of originality is proof that God exists. First time I've heard that tbh.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    I've heard it many times, but it also assumes that there aren't other ways to explain similarities, such as cultural cross-exchange of ideas (which happens prolifically even in the Bible, hence why Israel is supposed to avoid inter-marriage and the like), and the fact that most myths begin to explain observed phenomena, which itself tends to be very similar and repetitive. I personally think this is an extremely weak argument that is only compelling if you have already presupposed that God revealed himself and his revelations were bastardized by civilizations around the world. It's classic Confirmation Bias.
fortran77 1y ago
> He revealed himself to them and only them, ignoring the rest of humanity all over the globe That's absolutely not true. First of all, there was an enormous crowd of people: 600,000 families--millions of people--who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai. And secondly, G-d offered the Torah to all the peoples of the world. (https://www.sefaria.org/Sifrei_Devarim.343.2?lang=bi https://www.sefaria.org/Sifrei_Devarim.343.2?lang=bi) It's a fundamental principle of Judaism that all righteous people will be in the world to come, unlike Christianity. All that being said, I will not be wagering that "Jesus" will come again.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  > That's absolutely not true. First of all, there was an enormous crowd of people: 600,000 families--millions of people--who received the revelation on Mt. Sinai. It's true that it was very regional, within the reach of a group of people's ability to communicate. > And secondly, G-d offered the Torah to all the peoples of the world. Did he? Did all the other cultures of the world about that time simply not answer the door?
- wat10000 1y ago
  And how do we know that millions of people received this revelation? We only “know” this if we take this particular tribe’s myths to be fact.
CyrsBel 1y ago
Who said he ignored the rest of humanity? That's not what the record shows. Most people know about God. Who said that in all the universe he chose just earth? You're assuming too much about the motivations. I do not see what the issue is with a "very human scale" for messaging. That's...how you communicate with humans.
- wat10000 1y ago
  “ That's...how you communicate with humans.” Right. Why would the omnipotent creator of the universe communicate the same way I do?
  - ivape 1y ago
    Why do we sometimes bend down to look at a dog or child? To look them in the eye, at their level.
    - paulryanrogers 1y ago
      We aren't all powerful. We can't reach into their brain or ear to communicate. Supposedly God is all powerful. And doesn't speak directly to everyone, just certain ones.
      - CyrsBel 1y ago
        Not everyone cares or listens. But the original point of the question you were responding to was that it seems strange that God would communicate with people in an intelligible or familiar or baser way. So being all powerful is irrelevant, because if we do it then why couldn't or wouldn't God do it? There's nothing wrong with communicating in the way that the targets in question will comprehend. That's the point of communication.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - 1y ago
ivape 1y ago
When Michael Jackson does a concert, it’s really only in a few locations. It’s up to the world to spread it. As others have mentioned, he could show up in the sky like Mufasa, but he could also just brain wash you in an instant and fix all of it. Faith is a concept, like so many other concepts. It is a unique creation that has properties, one of them is that it’s not meant to be provable that easily.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  Yeah, I don't really buy that. God revealed himself directly to Moses and Moses was still able to ignore him or go against his wishes and still had to come to faith on his own terms. Both faith and free will are a great bottomless pits to throw any philosophical or logical incongruities into. > When Michael Jackson does a concert, it’s really only in a few locations. It’s up to the world to spread it. In this example, what is up to the world to spread for Michael Jackson? Is god a singular entity with a specific location? I'm sure Michael would have happily shown up in every place on earth if he could have sold tickets.
- wat10000 1y ago
  "...it’s not meant to be provable that easily." If ever there were a post-hoc rationalization, this is it. It's funny how the faithful are generally happy to use any evidence that they think supports the faith, but once it gets too difficult then suddenly it's not supposed to have too much evidence for it.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    When constructing a house of cards, it's important to not make it look too easy.

wat10000 1y ago

Sure, but in that case the supposed fact that God revealed himself to this particular tribe is the key thing supporting the belief, not "reality is unexplainable, it must be something else."