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nathanaldensr 1y ago
Sadly, this is very true in my experience. We are all fallen to some degree, but few, including Christians, seem to have the humility to recognize this in themselves.
cozyman 1y ago
Paul and Daniel didn't have any temporal power, our religion teaches us Christians should seek to wield temporal power when possible to create more virtuous societies.
- vel0city 1y ago
  I didn't realize sending people to prison for paperwork issues and denying healthcare to the poor so wealthy people can continue enriching themselves is creating a more virtuous, Christ-like society.
Ekaros 1y ago
I have always thought that Jesus would not be too great fan of Churches as big buildings in general... Community centres probably, but the churches themselves... And specially not broadcasting it on tv...
- Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
  Matthew 6:1,5 "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. [...] And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206&ver...
marcusverus 1y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > idea that Christians are more "hateful, spiteful, and conceited" than the average non-Christian is Not claimed by anyone you’re responding to.
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    Sure, the actual claim is more of a vibe. A nebulous, anecdatal "Christians are the worst". A distinction, but hardly a difference. > most churches I've seen aren't really following what Christ teaches. They're often filled with some of the most hateful, spiteful, and conceited people I've ever met
- vel0city 1y ago
  That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!" I'm not for encouraging people to get abortions. I think abortions are a terrible and sad thing. I wish for a world where nobody would ever need to have such a procedure done. I also think its terrible to have the state force people to carry risky pregnancies to term. I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare. But many others disagree.
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    > That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!" Your implied argument is what, exactly? That JC opposed the death penalty for adultry, ergo he's against shaming single mothers, even if it leads to better outcomes? Bit of a stretch. > I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare. These opinions are shared by all mainstream Christian churches and the overwhelming majority of Christians.
BJones12 1y ago
Regarding the Robert Morris reference, not going to defend any action, but I will point out his 'bad action' was 40 years ago. Why does that matter? There are abuses happening now, every day, by high profile. Some (Epstein, Diddy) are starting to be caught. Others (Drake) may face judgement far into the future. Others (Chris Brown) never will. If criticizing modern church culture requires referencing acts of 40 years ago, and criticizing secular culture requires references acts that happened recently, and will probably happen again tomorrow, that could indicate that the modern USA church is doing better than we think. Possibly a lot better.
- vel0city 1y ago
  No, the bad actions are still happening today. Maybe the original action (the sexual abuse) happened 40 years ago. But he continued to lie about it until recently and pushed other people to lie on his behalf. This isn't 40 years ago, this is still very recently. This is still wrong and was a wrong that was ongoing. Had he actually been honest about these things and properly served whatever justice is right for these things and lived openly about it for the last 40 years, it would be a very different story. And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to. This is church money, which should be used to push the work of Christ. He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle instead of actually helping the people he was charged to help. Yet another wrong.
  - BJones12 1y ago
    > But he continued to lie about it until recently From what I've heard, he has disclosed actions years, possibly decades, ago but did not mention that involvement of a minor. I expect this is because a lawyer, or possibly anyone with a quarter of a brain, gave the same advice to him as they would any other human - shut your mouth. Is that a wrong? > And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to. One article [0] says "his attorney sent a letter to church lawyers [demanding] more than $1 million that had accrued in Morris's retirement account". Again, I suspect that he is getting advice from lawyers to do what they would advise any other human to do - collect on earned retirement benefits. Is that a wrong? > He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle If you'll forgive the crudeness of this comparison, I expect that running a church of 100,000 attendees to be of comparable, but not equal, complexity as a company with 100,000 customers. That could make running Gateway in the same ballpark as running Asana. The CEO of Asana gets 15 million a year for his trouble. Morris got, what, 5% of that? 3%? Is it self-enrichment to offer world-class leadership to a church at a 95% discount to its free market value? [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/robert-morris-gateway-church-retirement-money-arbitration/ https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/robert-morris-gateway-chu...

[flagged]

Sadly, this is very true in my experience. We are all fallen to some degree, but few, including Christians, seem to have the humility to recognize this in themselves.

cozyman 1y ago

Paul and Daniel didn't have any temporal power, our religion teaches us Christians should seek to wield temporal power when possible to create more virtuous societies.

vel0city 1y ago
I didn't realize sending people to prison for paperwork issues and denying healthcare to the poor so wealthy people can continue enriching themselves is creating a more virtuous, Christ-like society.

Ekaros 1y ago

I have always thought that Jesus would not be too great fan of Churches as big buildings in general... Community centres probably, but the churches themselves... And specially not broadcasting it on tv...

Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
Matthew 6:1,5 "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. [...] And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206&ver...

marcusverus 1y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> idea that Christians are more "hateful, spiteful, and conceited" than the average non-Christian is Not claimed by anyone you’re responding to.
- marcusverus 1y ago
  Sure, the actual claim is more of a vibe. A nebulous, anecdatal "Christians are the worst". A distinction, but hardly a difference. > most churches I've seen aren't really following what Christ teaches. They're often filled with some of the most hateful, spiteful, and conceited people I've ever met
vel0city 1y ago
That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!" I'm not for encouraging people to get abortions. I think abortions are a terrible and sad thing. I wish for a world where nobody would ever need to have such a procedure done. I also think its terrible to have the state force people to carry risky pregnancies to term. I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare. But many others disagree.
- marcusverus 1y ago
  > That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!" Your implied argument is what, exactly? That JC opposed the death penalty for adultry, ergo he's against shaming single mothers, even if it leads to better outcomes? Bit of a stretch. > I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare. These opinions are shared by all mainstream Christian churches and the overwhelming majority of Christians.

BJones12 1y ago

Regarding the Robert Morris reference, not going to defend any action, but I will point out his 'bad action' was 40 years ago. Why does that matter? There are abuses happening now, every day, by high profile. Some (Epstein, Diddy) are starting to be caught. Others (Drake) may face judgement far into the future. Others (Chris Brown) never will. If criticizing modern church culture requires referencing acts of 40 years ago, and criticizing secular culture requires references acts that happened recently, and will probably happen again tomorrow, that could indicate that the modern USA church is doing better than we think. Possibly a lot better.

vel0city 1y ago
No, the bad actions are still happening today. Maybe the original action (the sexual abuse) happened 40 years ago. But he continued to lie about it until recently and pushed other people to lie on his behalf. This isn't 40 years ago, this is still very recently. This is still wrong and was a wrong that was ongoing. Had he actually been honest about these things and properly served whatever justice is right for these things and lived openly about it for the last 40 years, it would be a very different story. And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to. This is church money, which should be used to push the work of Christ. He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle instead of actually helping the people he was charged to help. Yet another wrong.
- BJones12 1y ago
  > But he continued to lie about it until recently From what I've heard, he has disclosed actions years, possibly decades, ago but did not mention that involvement of a minor. I expect this is because a lawyer, or possibly anyone with a quarter of a brain, gave the same advice to him as they would any other human - shut your mouth. Is that a wrong? > And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to. One article [0] says "his attorney sent a letter to church lawyers [demanding] more than $1 million that had accrued in Morris's retirement account". Again, I suspect that he is getting advice from lawyers to do what they would advise any other human to do - collect on earned retirement benefits. Is that a wrong? > He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle If you'll forgive the crudeness of this comparison, I expect that running a church of 100,000 attendees to be of comparable, but not equal, complexity as a company with 100,000 customers. That could make running Gateway in the same ballpark as running Asana. The CEO of Asana gets 15 million a year for his trouble. Morris got, what, 5% of that? 3%? Is it self-enrichment to offer world-class leadership to a church at a 95% discount to its free market value? [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/robert-morris-gateway-church-retirement-money-arbitration/ https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/robert-morris-gateway-chu...