5 ms·

So, there have been a lot of negative comments and I understand where they are coming from. I will try to address them as best I can. "Seeing a self-taught guy

So, there have been a lot of negative comments and I understand where they are coming from. I will try to address them as best I can. "Seeing a self-taught guy with 6 months coding experience writing software at a medical lab testing facility makes me a bit nervous." I am working mostly on internal systems and when I venture outside of that I have my own branch write thorough tests and have multiple people check my code. "I shudder to think of the quality of his code and the projects he or people like him are let loose on." My code is pretty shitty. But, I know how bad it is, I know my limitations. I work long days and more after work to improve. I am not pretending, I am learning. "Very fancy, but I am a software engineer, or programmer, as you prefer it to be called. Engineer means that I studied 5 years at university (Bs + Ms), and I know what I have learnt there, and I wouldn’t want to work with someone that doesn’t know about algorithms, algebra (it helps you understand a lot of things and opens your minid), compilers, statistics, concurrent programming, software architecture (1 full year course), UI designing, networks, databases, etc, etc." I disagree that amount of time in a University is what allows one to become a programmer, it is the skills and knowledge acquired at the school. I didn't have that option, I needed a job in under six months or I was going to have to get a job doing something I didn't love. I worked hard and got the job. Am I a master? Nope. But, I have put myself in a position to become one with continued hard work. I think that is all of them. Many people glossed over this line, "When I started this search I thought I would be scrubbing toilets in exchange for nightly code reviews." The fact that I am not doing that is a mixture of my willingness to clean toilets to learn the craft I love and a market desperation for developers.

mattdeboard 14y ago
If you're like me those kinds of comments probably gnawed at you. Don't let it. In a few years you'll have achieved parity in terms of salary and respect to most of these surly commenters, and no one will give a shit about your "origin story". Your work will speak for itself. To all the negative nancies, take it up with Dr. Norvig. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3278080 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3278080
LnxPrgr3 14y ago
I too am largely self-taught, though I took a much more convoluted path to get where I am today. I lucked out several years ago and found an employer willing to take a chance on me in spite of zero real-world experience and incomplete schooling. It seems to have worked out pretty well so far! You know you're still green, and I respect that. Everyone has to be at some point. I don't care if they went to school—I've seen people come out of respectable CS programs not knowing a damn thing about actually writing software. I've also seen people with plenty of experience—people who should really know better by now—still code trivially avoidable vulnerabilities and make other silly mistakes. School and experience are both lost on someone not really willing to take learning seriously, who already believes he's an expert.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  Really, we're all self-taught. The practice of development is so far removed from college courses as to make us all essentially even at first hire.
Jgrubb 14y ago
Hey, way to go! I remember that letter on the NYC Ruby list. I find music and computers to be so parallel in so many ways. The whole "scrubbing toilets" thing is what they told all of us recording students we'd have to be doing to get an internship at a recording studio. As a side note, I always wanted to be playing more than either scrubbing toilets or making records, which turned out to have been a good thing in the long term here. I was one of the jazzers in a classical music school. We were pretty much the 1% in that we had every paying gig for a 50 mile radius. I could never tell if the classical kids (and teachers) held their noses up because we were "untrained louts" or because we "untrained louts and working a lot more than they were". Take from that what you will...
lmirosevic 14y ago
Just wanted to say congratulations and keep doing what you're doing. I've found that there's nothing better in life than having a goal to believe in and then achieving that goal, in spite of all it's difficulties. It's one of few things that will give you true happiness. As for the negative comments, you'll get plenty of those in life and you should just ignore them (if you succeed in doing this, let me know how you did it).
elliottcarlson 14y ago
You have the right attitude about schooling. I never went to school for this, actually I am a high school dropout and never attended University. I have no degrees, and am happy about that. Instead I now have 16 years of real life work experience (and an additional 4 years of programming for myself). I make it a point to learn constantly - whether it is algorithms, compilers, statistics, etc. I have met plenty of people who have that background and still have no clue what they are doing. Remain passionate about what you are doing - that is what will make you a good programmer.
ProfessorNipple 14y ago
How much will you be making at your new gig?
klibertp 14y ago
I read your piece with mixed feelings, I felt some kind of frustration. Then I thought for a bit and realized what I actually felt was jealousy and a bit of insecurity. After I recognized this it took me less than a minute to dismiss them completely - I'm not a cheerful person and I can't say I was really "happy for you", but what I wanted to write as a comment at that point was something in the lines of "good job". Then I read the comments. Then went to work. Then read some more comments after I came back. And what I want to write now would consist of profanities, wild swearing and all expressions of despise I could find. Not directed at you, obviously but at all the people who write complete and utter bullshit like the one who calls himself a programmer JUST BECAUSE of a few years in school or another one who thinks you'll be "a nightmare and time-suck for coworkers". I have no words for the ones like them, and it's not because English is my second language (it is ofc). And I'm scared shitless that, had I not take a couple of minutes to think, I could write something similar. Well, obviously, you did... I'm not a cheerful, empathic person. You did ok, and you know it - you're employed and you do what you like. You don't need me to tell you that. Instead, I'll try to explain to you why those people wrote those poisonous comments, or, at least, what was it that almost made me write something similar. 1) I started programming at the age of 10 and got my first job in the field some twelve years later. Not because of lack of opportunity, there were chances. I was shy, I was uncertain of my skills (think 16+, obviously not earlier), I wasted time hesitating. From 10 to 16 years of age there were six summer holidays, which amounts to almost twelve months of programming (which is understatement - what with winter holidays and programming after school and all), so at least double the time you spent. And I wasted another six years before I finally gathered up the courage and actually applied somewhere (I got hired right off the bat). To put it simply: I'm jealous. You did what I could have done but didn't. I think there is still, almost ten years later, some regret in me that I didn't. Your post touched that regret and almost caused me to be mindlessly aggressive as some of the other commentator. I think this is a motivation for some of them. 2) The one who wrote that 'he studied 5 years at university' has similar reasons to the one stated above. It's just regret mixed with anger. The truth is he knows what these years gave him (at least if he's active as a professional developer now) and is bitter about this. This one is easy for me to spot, because I see it in people when they (sometimes after years of successful cooperation!) find out that I dropped out fairly quickly and never got my degree. It's funny, because I have never heard such complaints from people who had some social life during college. In short: they know they wasted they time, or alternatively, they know that they're not cut out to be programmers if they couldn't become one without collage. And for the record - don't be intimidated, please. "Compilers, networks, databases, concurrent programming" - you'll learn all of this if you want, it's not some arcane magic, really, you're perfectly able to learn most of those things on your own. Your post, your success in just six months shows this. They couldn't do this if their lives depended on it, and that's why they're angry. [It (the former case, of regretting time spent in college) applies equally to me, but in a weird way: maybe I could be an entirely self-taught programmer, but I'm not, and this angers me. If only I knew better than to go to college, waste time and money, and instead just programmed more! But no, I had to take those few years and now I hear sometimes that "well, imagine how much better you'd be if you graduated" or "anything you know is because of your education, it's a pity you dropped out"...] 3) In this profession, if you want to be serious about it, it's absolutely not about how much you know at any given point, it's about how quickly and efficiently you accumulate knowledge. Many people take for granted that after some time speed of knowledge acquisition drops, but they should know better. It's not a law, it's just their laziness. What you did in half a year is not impressive for the ones ahead of you - I mean what you can do now, what skills you have now. But if you keep it up... if you'll stay as passionate as you are for a few years more... Yeah, I can see that: hordes of programmers (consciously or not) afraid of you. Programmers who haven't learned anything new since last year. Programmers who learn, but slowly. Programmers who are not giving their best. That's why I wrote about insecurity at the beginning, that's what I briefly felt, until I realized I have better things to do than worry about this - writing this small Erlang pet project for example. Remember that if you keep at it you will upset many people, those who stopped learning, those who stagnated, but it's not your fault they're lazy! Well, I just realized that I wrote an awful lot of text, most of which is my own introspection and, partially, projection. I did it probably because I'm not a cheerful person and this is the simplest way for me to tell you: "good job, keep at it". Ignore negative comments, in such cases as yours they tell much more about their authors than about what you did. And you know what you did, you don't need me to tell you that, so I'll just end this here.

mattdeboard 14y ago

If you're like me those kinds of comments probably gnawed at you. Don't let it. In a few years you'll have achieved parity in terms of salary and respect to most of these surly commenters, and no one will give a shit about your "origin story". Your work will speak for itself. To all the negative nancies, take it up with Dr. Norvig. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3278080 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3278080

LnxPrgr3 14y ago

I too am largely self-taught, though I took a much more convoluted path to get where I am today. I lucked out several years ago and found an employer willing to take a chance on me in spite of zero real-world experience and incomplete schooling. It seems to have worked out pretty well so far! You know you're still green, and I respect that. Everyone has to be at some point. I don't care if they went to school—I've seen people come out of respectable CS programs not knowing a damn thing about actually writing software. I've also seen people with plenty of experience—people who should really know better by now—still code trivially avoidable vulnerabilities and make other silly mistakes. School and experience are both lost on someone not really willing to take learning seriously, who already believes he's an expert.

JoeAltmaier 14y ago
Really, we're all self-taught. The practice of development is so far removed from college courses as to make us all essentially even at first hire.

Jgrubb 14y ago

Hey, way to go! I remember that letter on the NYC Ruby list. I find music and computers to be so parallel in so many ways. The whole "scrubbing toilets" thing is what they told all of us recording students we'd have to be doing to get an internship at a recording studio. As a side note, I always wanted to be playing more than either scrubbing toilets or making records, which turned out to have been a good thing in the long term here. I was one of the jazzers in a classical music school. We were pretty much the 1% in that we had every paying gig for a 50 mile radius. I could never tell if the classical kids (and teachers) held their noses up because we were "untrained louts" or because we "untrained louts and working a lot more than they were". Take from that what you will...

lmirosevic 14y ago

Just wanted to say congratulations and keep doing what you're doing. I've found that there's nothing better in life than having a goal to believe in and then achieving that goal, in spite of all it's difficulties. It's one of few things that will give you true happiness. As for the negative comments, you'll get plenty of those in life and you should just ignore them (if you succeed in doing this, let me know how you did it).

elliottcarlson 14y ago

You have the right attitude about schooling. I never went to school for this, actually I am a high school dropout and never attended University. I have no degrees, and am happy about that. Instead I now have 16 years of real life work experience (and an additional 4 years of programming for myself). I make it a point to learn constantly - whether it is algorithms, compilers, statistics, etc. I have met plenty of people who have that background and still have no clue what they are doing. Remain passionate about what you are doing - that is what will make you a good programmer.

ProfessorNipple 14y ago

How much will you be making at your new gig?

klibertp 14y ago

I read your piece with mixed feelings, I felt some kind of frustration. Then I thought for a bit and realized what I actually felt was jealousy and a bit of insecurity. After I recognized this it took me less than a minute to dismiss them completely - I'm not a cheerful person and I can't say I was really "happy for you", but what I wanted to write as a comment at that point was something in the lines of "good job". Then I read the comments. Then went to work. Then read some more comments after I came back. And what I want to write now would consist of profanities, wild swearing and all expressions of despise I could find. Not directed at you, obviously but at all the people who write complete and utter bullshit like the one who calls himself a programmer JUST BECAUSE of a few years in school or another one who thinks you'll be "a nightmare and time-suck for coworkers". I have no words for the ones like them, and it's not because English is my second language (it is ofc). And I'm scared shitless that, had I not take a couple of minutes to think, I could write something similar. Well, obviously, you did... I'm not a cheerful, empathic person. You did ok, and you know it - you're employed and you do what you like. You don't need me to tell you that. Instead, I'll try to explain to you why those people wrote those poisonous comments, or, at least, what was it that almost made me write something similar. 1) I started programming at the age of 10 and got my first job in the field some twelve years later. Not because of lack of opportunity, there were chances. I was shy, I was uncertain of my skills (think 16+, obviously not earlier), I wasted time hesitating. From 10 to 16 years of age there were six summer holidays, which amounts to almost twelve months of programming (which is understatement - what with winter holidays and programming after school and all), so at least double the time you spent. And I wasted another six years before I finally gathered up the courage and actually applied somewhere (I got hired right off the bat). To put it simply: I'm jealous. You did what I could have done but didn't. I think there is still, almost ten years later, some regret in me that I didn't. Your post touched that regret and almost caused me to be mindlessly aggressive as some of the other commentator. I think this is a motivation for some of them. 2) The one who wrote that 'he studied 5 years at university' has similar reasons to the one stated above. It's just regret mixed with anger. The truth is he knows what these years gave him (at least if he's active as a professional developer now) and is bitter about this. This one is easy for me to spot, because I see it in people when they (sometimes after years of successful cooperation!) find out that I dropped out fairly quickly and never got my degree. It's funny, because I have never heard such complaints from people who had some social life during college. In short: they know they wasted they time, or alternatively, they know that they're not cut out to be programmers if they couldn't become one without collage. And for the record - don't be intimidated, please. "Compilers, networks, databases, concurrent programming" - you'll learn all of this if you want, it's not some arcane magic, really, you're perfectly able to learn most of those things on your own. Your post, your success in just six months shows this. They couldn't do this if their lives depended on it, and that's why they're angry. [It (the former case, of regretting time spent in college) applies equally to me, but in a weird way: maybe I could be an entirely self-taught programmer, but I'm not, and this angers me. If only I knew better than to go to college, waste time and money, and instead just programmed more! But no, I had to take those few years and now I hear sometimes that "well, imagine how much better you'd be if you graduated" or "anything you know is because of your education, it's a pity you dropped out"...] 3) In this profession, if you want to be serious about it, it's absolutely not about how much you know at any given point, it's about how quickly and efficiently you accumulate knowledge. Many people take for granted that after some time speed of knowledge acquisition drops, but they should know better. It's not a law, it's just their laziness. What you did in half a year is not impressive for the ones ahead of you - I mean what you can do now, what skills you have now. But if you keep it up... if you'll stay as passionate as you are for a few years more... Yeah, I can see that: hordes of programmers (consciously or not) afraid of you. Programmers who haven't learned anything new since last year. Programmers who learn, but slowly. Programmers who are not giving their best. That's why I wrote about insecurity at the beginning, that's what I briefly felt, until I realized I have better things to do than worry about this - writing this small Erlang pet project for example. Remember that if you keep at it you will upset many people, those who stopped learning, those who stagnated, but it's not your fault they're lazy! Well, I just realized that I wrote an awful lot of text, most of which is my own introspection and, partially, projection. I did it probably because I'm not a cheerful person and this is the simplest way for me to tell you: "good job, keep at it". Ignore negative comments, in such cases as yours they tell much more about their authors than about what you did. And you know what you did, you don't need me to tell you that, so I'll just end this here.