3 ms·

I don’t think you’re grasping where I’m getting at. It’s not just about time or budget, at all. Some things are downright impossible without the appropriate da

by whstl 1y ago

I don’t think you’re grasping where I’m getting at. It’s not just about time or budget, at all. Some things are downright impossible without the appropriate data. I mention this above but: I was recently in a situation where a PM wanted two calls to a pure mathematical function to have the same result even though the inputs were different. I can patiently explain this multiple times and provide alternatives and try to explore the actual problem space, but it comes a point that the PM saying “maybe I should ask another engineer” becomes grating enough to make you want to quit. Working with people who not only are unable to do their jobs but also refuse to listen to others has become too normalized in this industry.

BurningFrog 1y ago
I would tell the PM that "sure, let's go talk to him together". Most likely the other engineer will agree. Or maybe he can see something I don't. Either way we're making progress. > Working with people who not only are unable to do their jobs but also refuse to listen to others has become too normalized in this industry. In parts of it, sure. But there really are places with higher quality of people. You will have to prove yourself a bit more to get hired there, of course.
- whstl 1y ago
  > You will have to prove yourself a bit more to get hired there, of course. What you're implying here is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. This phrase alone says much more about you than it does about me. The point of my story is that taking cheap shots at your interlocutor isn't the way to build software, or win discussions. Let's at least aim to be a bit more respectful towards each other here.
  - BurningFrog 1y ago
    This is a misunderstanding. I meant "you" as the "generic you" (any job seeker), not the "specific you" (you). I hope the fact that you need good skills to get good jobs is not controversial. I meant this as a message of hope: There really are good jobs out there, so don't give up on the industry!
    - whstl 1y ago
      Understood. I don't disagree. However: even joining companies with amazing engineering departments, salaries and even great executive departments is not a guarantee that the software making process is at the same level. I say this with experience in one FAANG, two YC startups and two multi-billion-dollar unicorns. There is a fundamental disdain towards both developers and users in the industry, visible on one side by the RTO/layoffs/AI-replacement, and on the other with dark patterns, cookie-banners, autoplay videos, behavioral experimentation and recklessness with data and general slowness. I still maintain that saying "no" to things that damage the world and compromise the work is the duty of anyone calling themselves an engineer.

by whstl 1y ago

BurningFrog 1y ago

I would tell the PM that "sure, let's go talk to him together". Most likely the other engineer will agree. Or maybe he can see something I don't. Either way we're making progress. > Working with people who not only are unable to do their jobs but also refuse to listen to others has become too normalized in this industry. In parts of it, sure. But there really are places with higher quality of people. You will have to prove yourself a bit more to get hired there, of course.

whstl 1y ago
> You will have to prove yourself a bit more to get hired there, of course. What you're implying here is extremely disrespectful and uncalled for. This phrase alone says much more about you than it does about me. The point of my story is that taking cheap shots at your interlocutor isn't the way to build software, or win discussions. Let's at least aim to be a bit more respectful towards each other here.
- BurningFrog 1y ago
  This is a misunderstanding. I meant "you" as the "generic you" (any job seeker), not the "specific you" (you). I hope the fact that you need good skills to get good jobs is not controversial. I meant this as a message of hope: There really are good jobs out there, so don't give up on the industry!
  - whstl 1y ago
    Understood. I don't disagree. However: even joining companies with amazing engineering departments, salaries and even great executive departments is not a guarantee that the software making process is at the same level. I say this with experience in one FAANG, two YC startups and two multi-billion-dollar unicorns. There is a fundamental disdain towards both developers and users in the industry, visible on one side by the RTO/layoffs/AI-replacement, and on the other with dark patterns, cookie-banners, autoplay videos, behavioral experimentation and recklessness with data and general slowness. I still maintain that saying "no" to things that damage the world and compromise the work is the duty of anyone calling themselves an engineer.