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> Fatal Recklessness at Boeing Traces Back to Long-Standing C-Suite Greed I suspect this is true to a certain extent, but IMO this narrative has been exaggerat

by Aunche 1y ago

> Fatal Recklessness at Boeing Traces Back to Long-Standing C-Suite Greed I suspect this is true to a certain extent, but IMO this narrative has been exaggerated to the point where it is completely useless. If Boeing execs were only focused on "short term profits," how did commercial aviation deaths decrease despite there being significantly more flights? https://www.statista.com/chart/4854/commercial-aviation-deaths-since-1942/ https://www.statista.com/chart/4854/commercial-aviation-deat...

toomuchtodo 1y ago
> Works until it doesn't. Boeing 737 Max: The troubled history of fatal crashes and 346 deaths in 7 years - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/boeing-737-max-the-troubled-history-of-fatal-crashes-and-346-deaths-in-7-years/articleshow/111566888.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/busi... - July 8th, 2024 As Boeing looks to buy a key 737 supplier [Spirit AeroSystems], a whistleblower says the problems run deep - https://www.npr.org/2024/06/16/nx-s1-4998520/boeing-737-spirit-aerosystems-whistleblower https://www.npr.org/2024/06/16/nx-s1-4998520/boeing-737-spir... - June 16th, 2024 Boeing’s Decline Traced to Decades of Catering to Shareholders Above All Others - https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/boeings-decline-traced-to-decades-of-catering-to-shareholders-above-all-others/ https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/boeings-decline-traced-... - April 8th, 2024 Boeing’s long fall, and how it might recover - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeings-long-fall-and-how-it-might-recover/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... - April 7th, 2024
- Aunche 1y ago
  Are there actually more issues or are people just more aware of them? Like I said, commercial airline flights are significantly safer than they were in Boeing's supposed golden era despite these publicized scandals.
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    If your position is "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people" we may be unable to meet on this topic. How many deaths would be sufficient? I argue the decline in fatalities over time is due to commercial air traffic regulations and systems. https://news.mit.edu/2024/study-flying-keeps-getting-safer-0807 https://news.mit.edu/2024/study-flying-keeps-getting-safer-0...
    - Aunche 1y ago
      > "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people" It should be clear that is not what I meant. This reinforces my view that popular criticism towards Boeing is unhelpful and ironically is relevant to the posted essay. People care more about gotchas more than deep discussion. If the 737 Max incidents were due to negligence on Boeing's part, the many of the incidents in the 70s were also due to negligence. You can't have it both ways.
      - toomuchtodo 1y ago
        It’s not meant as a gotcha. It’s meant to illustrate that the effects of financialization, stripping an enterprise of its value, and the culture that enables this (of which short termism is a component) can take some time for the symptoms to surface. Boeing cared more about profits than safety, this is what the evidence shows. If you disagree, of course, you’re entitled to your opinion. I believe I’ve supported my thesis adequately with citations. It was a long corporate journey to the crash sites, but the journey is well documented. (GE also took substantial time to fall apart, but with no deaths to my knowledge)
        spwa4 1y ago
        The problem is that the opposite is as destructive. Doing new things WILL cause accidents. And in the case of Boeing, of course it will result in planes failing. And the "solution" to any level of this kind of criticism is really easy: do less, eventually do nothing at all anymore. But, in truth, that's even more destructive, in fact that that's happening is what this whole thread is about. We need a balance. There needs to be some tolerance for risk, certainly at companies like Boeing.

by Aunche 1y ago

toomuchtodo 1y ago

> Works until it doesn't. Boeing 737 Max: The troubled history of fatal crashes and 346 deaths in 7 years - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/boeing-737-max-the-troubled-history-of-fatal-crashes-and-346-deaths-in-7-years/articleshow/111566888.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/busi... - July 8th, 2024 As Boeing looks to buy a key 737 supplier [Spirit AeroSystems], a whistleblower says the problems run deep - https://www.npr.org/2024/06/16/nx-s1-4998520/boeing-737-spirit-aerosystems-whistleblower https://www.npr.org/2024/06/16/nx-s1-4998520/boeing-737-spir... - June 16th, 2024 Boeing’s Decline Traced to Decades of Catering to Shareholders Above All Others - https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/boeings-decline-traced-to-decades-of-catering-to-shareholders-above-all-others/ https://bhr.stern.nyu.edu/quick-take/boeings-decline-traced-... - April 8th, 2024 Boeing’s long fall, and how it might recover - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeings-long-fall-and-how-it-might-recover/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein... - April 7th, 2024

Aunche 1y ago
Are there actually more issues or are people just more aware of them? Like I said, commercial airline flights are significantly safer than they were in Boeing's supposed golden era despite these publicized scandals.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  If your position is "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people" we may be unable to meet on this topic. How many deaths would be sufficient? I argue the decline in fatalities over time is due to commercial air traffic regulations and systems. https://news.mit.edu/2024/study-flying-keeps-getting-safer-0807 https://news.mit.edu/2024/study-flying-keeps-getting-safer-0...
  - Aunche 1y ago
    > "well, it lasted this long and the organizational rot only killed a few hundred people" It should be clear that is not what I meant. This reinforces my view that popular criticism towards Boeing is unhelpful and ironically is relevant to the posted essay. People care more about gotchas more than deep discussion. If the 737 Max incidents were due to negligence on Boeing's part, the many of the incidents in the 70s were also due to negligence. You can't have it both ways.
    - toomuchtodo 1y ago
      It’s not meant as a gotcha. It’s meant to illustrate that the effects of financialization, stripping an enterprise of its value, and the culture that enables this (of which short termism is a component) can take some time for the symptoms to surface. Boeing cared more about profits than safety, this is what the evidence shows. If you disagree, of course, you’re entitled to your opinion. I believe I’ve supported my thesis adequately with citations. It was a long corporate journey to the crash sites, but the journey is well documented. (GE also took substantial time to fall apart, but with no deaths to my knowledge)
      - spwa4 1y ago
        The problem is that the opposite is as destructive. Doing new things WILL cause accidents. And in the case of Boeing, of course it will result in planes failing. And the "solution" to any level of this kind of criticism is really easy: do less, eventually do nothing at all anymore. But, in truth, that's even more destructive, in fact that that's happening is what this whole thread is about. We need a balance. There needs to be some tolerance for risk, certainly at companies like Boeing.