4 ms·

Any untrue/invalid idea is bad. So it is not always subjective. “Tigers are friendly pets and every apartment in SF should have one” is an obviously bad idea.

by pama 1y ago

tomrod 1y ago
I just argued your side, but I don't think this defense holds up. Little white lies are objectively okay.
- the_af 1y ago
  > Little white lies are objectively okay. They are subjectively ok. Some people believe lying is always bad. I think the "true idea" (or let's call it "reasonable idea") when fully spelled out is "sometimes a white lie will be beneficial, will cause less harm, will inspire confidence in the receiver; and conversely, the harsh truth may harm them or be counterproductive". It's not the white lie itself that is the "good idea that is untrue"; the good idea is the reasoning behind the white lie, which is true.
  - tomrod 1y ago
    > Some people believe lying is always bad. Simply because someone believes something does not move the phenomenon to the subjective realm. The Earth is not flat. Some may argue a case for why they believe lying is always bad and would never engage in it. Yet experience proves those most vociferously against little white lies are often lying to themselves on a variety of topics. "Honey, does this make me look fat" is a no-win situation for these individuals.
    - hshshshshsh 1y ago
      > Simply because someone believes something does not move the phenomenon to the subjective realm. From your POV yes. From their POV no.
    - the_af 1y ago
      > The Earth is not flat I'm sorry, you cannot use this argument. It's not even in the same category. Whether telling a white lie is ok is as subjective as it gets. You can pick better examples if you want to make the case that some ideas are objectively good or bad; this one is not it.
bombcar 1y ago
Not if you don’t like SF or want to reduce real estate demand in the location.
- gruez 1y ago
  >or want to reduce real estate demand in the location. What good is that when you have to live with a tiger?
dbacar 1y ago
It might be a good idea from a tiger's perpective. So subjective.
- the_af 1y ago
  I don't think tigers would like SF.
jrockway 1y ago
Where there's a will there's a way, though. I'm sure that the early days of inviting wolves into our homes went wrong occasionally, but now it's a pretty popular thing. We bent them to our will.
- the_af 1y ago
  The domestication of wolves was probably not initially "an idea", it just happened that scavenging wolves nearby humans became less afraid and started following them. Mobile waste collectors plus early warning systems. If at some point humans had articulated this into "an idea", they would have seen it as a good idea. Which it would have been, since it's unrelated to wolves attacking humans. It's not that humans said "hey, let's go pet a wolf pup, I'm sure their parents won't mind!".
diggan 1y ago
> Any untrue/invalid idea is bad But for who? That makes it inherently subjective. For your obvious bad idea, there are a bunch of contexts where that is a good idea, even though it might be hard to imagine from your own perspective. Your example is bad for people who live in SF (most likely), but imagine there was a rival town that really hates SF, and wants them to be eaten by tigers. Then the idea of having one tiger per apartment makes a lot of sense, it would almost certainly lead to lots of people being eaten by tigers.
- the_af 1y ago
  Maybe they learn to coexist with the tigers, train them, and use them to attack the people in the rival town. But this is silly. It's obviously a bad idea. Here's another obviously bad idea: "vaccines are bad and cause autism". You could argue it was a good idea for the fraudster who started this notion, because it gained him fame, but nobody thinks in general about ideas like this. It's obviously false and detrimental to mankind, and therefore a bad idea. The Heaven's Gate cult also had an obviously bad idea. Mass suicide didn't teleport them to the mothership. They killed themselves for nothing. Had they lived, maybe some of them could have been rehabilitated and found happiness in things that weren't falsehoods. Or not.
  - hshshshshsh 1y ago
    Whatever criteria you are using to justify it's a good idea is your own subjective criteria. There is no good idea function cooked in reality which is objective across every observer.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - the_af 1y ago
      There's no anything cooked into reality. The very concept of "idea" is human-centered. But that's a fruitless line of thought in this context. It doesn't negate the fact there are bad ideas. Heaven's Gate mass suicide was a bad idea (and its justification was patently wrong: no soul was uploaded into the mothership). Bringing feral tigers into your apartment is another bad idea. They are only "subjective" in the most theoretical, I'm-having-an-internet-argument sense; in practice they are objectively bad ideas. Some ideas -- maybe most -- are neither good nor bad. But again, this doesn't negate that some ideas are objectively bad or good. Hardcore moral relativism (or is it "ideas relativism"?) is such a boring position to hold. I suspect it's also a dishonest position, in that deep down very few people actually hold it.
bandoti 1y ago
Well, unfortunately for us, untrue and bad ideas are used by sadistic individuals to gain power over others. So, it actually is subjective. Capitalism is neck-deep in bad ideas: “buy THIS product, it will add years to your life expectancy!” To the people selling the product it’s a good idea even if it’s a load of garbage—a quick buck to be made; to the person buying it, terrible idea in fact. :)

Any untrue/invalid idea is bad. So it is not always subjective. “Tigers are friendly pets and every apartment in SF should have one” is an obviously bad idea.

by pama 1y ago

Any untrue/invalid idea is bad. So it is not always subjective. “Tigers are friendly pets and every apartment in SF should have one” is an obviously bad idea.

tomrod 1y ago

I just argued your side, but I don't think this defense holds up. Little white lies are objectively okay.

the_af 1y ago
> Little white lies are objectively okay. They are subjectively ok. Some people believe lying is always bad. I think the "true idea" (or let's call it "reasonable idea") when fully spelled out is "sometimes a white lie will be beneficial, will cause less harm, will inspire confidence in the receiver; and conversely, the harsh truth may harm them or be counterproductive". It's not the white lie itself that is the "good idea that is untrue"; the good idea is the reasoning behind the white lie, which is true.
- tomrod 1y ago
  > Some people believe lying is always bad. Simply because someone believes something does not move the phenomenon to the subjective realm. The Earth is not flat. Some may argue a case for why they believe lying is always bad and would never engage in it. Yet experience proves those most vociferously against little white lies are often lying to themselves on a variety of topics. "Honey, does this make me look fat" is a no-win situation for these individuals.
  - hshshshshsh 1y ago
    > Simply because someone believes something does not move the phenomenon to the subjective realm. From your POV yes. From their POV no.
  - the_af 1y ago
    > The Earth is not flat I'm sorry, you cannot use this argument. It's not even in the same category. Whether telling a white lie is ok is as subjective as it gets. You can pick better examples if you want to make the case that some ideas are objectively good or bad; this one is not it.

bombcar 1y ago

Not if you don’t like SF or want to reduce real estate demand in the location.

gruez 1y ago
>or want to reduce real estate demand in the location. What good is that when you have to live with a tiger?

dbacar 1y ago

It might be a good idea from a tiger's perpective. So subjective.

the_af 1y ago
I don't think tigers would like SF.

jrockway 1y ago

Where there's a will there's a way, though. I'm sure that the early days of inviting wolves into our homes went wrong occasionally, but now it's a pretty popular thing. We bent them to our will.

the_af 1y ago
The domestication of wolves was probably not initially "an idea", it just happened that scavenging wolves nearby humans became less afraid and started following them. Mobile waste collectors plus early warning systems. If at some point humans had articulated this into "an idea", they would have seen it as a good idea. Which it would have been, since it's unrelated to wolves attacking humans. It's not that humans said "hey, let's go pet a wolf pup, I'm sure their parents won't mind!".

diggan 1y ago

> Any untrue/invalid idea is bad But for who? That makes it inherently subjective. For your obvious bad idea, there are a bunch of contexts where that is a good idea, even though it might be hard to imagine from your own perspective. Your example is bad for people who live in SF (most likely), but imagine there was a rival town that really hates SF, and wants them to be eaten by tigers. Then the idea of having one tiger per apartment makes a lot of sense, it would almost certainly lead to lots of people being eaten by tigers.

the_af 1y ago
Maybe they learn to coexist with the tigers, train them, and use them to attack the people in the rival town. But this is silly. It's obviously a bad idea. Here's another obviously bad idea: "vaccines are bad and cause autism". You could argue it was a good idea for the fraudster who started this notion, because it gained him fame, but nobody thinks in general about ideas like this. It's obviously false and detrimental to mankind, and therefore a bad idea. The Heaven's Gate cult also had an obviously bad idea. Mass suicide didn't teleport them to the mothership. They killed themselves for nothing. Had they lived, maybe some of them could have been rehabilitated and found happiness in things that weren't falsehoods. Or not.
- hshshshshsh 1y ago
  Whatever criteria you are using to justify it's a good idea is your own subjective criteria. There is no good idea function cooked in reality which is objective across every observer.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_af 1y ago
    There's no anything cooked into reality. The very concept of "idea" is human-centered. But that's a fruitless line of thought in this context. It doesn't negate the fact there are bad ideas. Heaven's Gate mass suicide was a bad idea (and its justification was patently wrong: no soul was uploaded into the mothership). Bringing feral tigers into your apartment is another bad idea. They are only "subjective" in the most theoretical, I'm-having-an-internet-argument sense; in practice they are objectively bad ideas. Some ideas -- maybe most -- are neither good nor bad. But again, this doesn't negate that some ideas are objectively bad or good. Hardcore moral relativism (or is it "ideas relativism"?) is such a boring position to hold. I suspect it's also a dishonest position, in that deep down very few people actually hold it.

bandoti 1y ago

Well, unfortunately for us, untrue and bad ideas are used by sadistic individuals to gain power over others. So, it actually is subjective. Capitalism is neck-deep in bad ideas: “buy THIS product, it will add years to your life expectancy!” To the people selling the product it’s a good idea even if it’s a load of garbage—a quick buck to be made; to the person buying it, terrible idea in fact. :)