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I'm glad that they address the increased tyre wear pollution. I'm not entirely(!) convinced that EVs only have slightly increased wear as there seems to be plen

I'm glad that they address the increased tyre wear pollution. I'm not entirely(!) convinced that EVs only have slightly increased wear as there seems to be plenty of reports of EVs going through tyres a lot quicker though estimates do seem to vary from about 30% to 50% more wear. (Also great that the report mentions the importance of walking/cycling for city transport)

slau 1y ago
Do you know where the increased tyre wear comes from? I run a PHEV, and if anything, my tyre wear has improved. This being said, I’ve noticed that many a “big EV” driver will take off from red lights like they’re driving a dragster.
- jabl 1y ago
  > This being said, I’ve noticed that many a “big EV” driver will take off from red lights like they’re driving a dragster. That would be my guess. Occasionally looking at specs from EV's coming on market, they seem to have very powerful engines, and of course the torque curve of electric motors is fantastic. So if you have such a car, and a heavy foot, I can well imagine you going through tires at a decent clip.
- gmac 1y ago
  Extra weight because of the battery, I think. Our EV is light for its size, but still 50% heavier than our previous ICE, of a similar size (Renault Scenic e-tech, 1.8 tonnes vs SEAT Leon ST, 1.2 tonnes). Though the additional acceleration probably does also make a difference.
- m101 1y ago
  Increased tire wear comes from the weight of the car and cornering. The tires need to do significantly more work in accelerating (the centrifugal kind) a car around corners at equal speed.
  - gambiting 1y ago
    So obviously and logically speaking, an ICE car of equivalent weight should have the same tyre wear, and we know that's not true - there are some very heavy ICEs around which still manage to do 50k miles on a single set of tyres without any issue. EVs have instant torque from 0rpm and people use it and that's the main reason. Case in point - we have a Volkswagen e-Up, it barely weighs 1000kg, it's pretty much one of the lightest cars on the road. And yet it goes through its front tyres like nothing, and that's despite very modest power output of only 80bhp. But I do accelerate hard as it's so easy to do - so it's reflected in the tyre wear.
    - flakeoil 1y ago
      That should be easy to fix though with a bit of software.
    - m101 1y ago
      I agree there are effects of increased linear acceleration, however I disagree with you because of: On many roads you accelerate and brake less often than you go around corners. These two things are equivalent on tire wear given the forces involved: 1 corner at 50kmh with 50m radius. Accelerating linearly at 0.39g (7 second 0-100kmh) to 77kmh from 0.
      - gambiting 1y ago
        I don't think that's neccessarily a disagreement? Both things can be true - if you mostly drive on roads with fast corners, the heavier car will wear out its tyres faster. If you drive on roads with lots of start/stop traffic but not many "at speed" corners then the one that consistently accelerates harder will wear out its tyres quicker.
        m101 1y ago
        Yes, it depends on how you drive and where, however I would note the above: 50kmh is typical of city driving and 50m isn't exactly a tight radius. 77kmh is actually quite fast, and 0.39g is actually quite high acceleration (this is flooring it in chill mode in a Tesla model y). I am trying to say that the driving circumstances where the linear forces are more important than the horizontal forces are fewer in number.
- kube-system 1y ago
  All else equal, the higher rate of BEV tire wear is primarily a function of their greater weight relative to comparable vehicles.
  - gambiting 1y ago
    >>All else equal That's equivalent to those high school physics exercises that say "assume zero friction and no gravity". Everything else isn't equal with EVs because they make accelerating from standstill so effortless without any obvious downside that people do it back to back like it's nothing, while in an ICE you'd have to drive like a madman dumping the clutch every time just to get the same torque at the start. If you had two cars accelerating at the same rate then sure, the heavier one would wear out its tyres faster - but that's just not how people drive EVs(broadly speaking).
    - kube-system 1y ago
      There are EVs that aren't overpowered luxury cars. They also burn through tires faster. Also, if you compare two gasoline cars of different weights, the heavier one burns through tires quicker.
      - gambiting 1y ago
        That's exactly what I'm saying though. I have an EV that's only 1000kg and 80bhp and it goes through tyres like butter.
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  It'll be the extra weight and greater torque.
- Ekaros 1y ago
  I think most reasonable explanation is likely very much increased torque and rather poor traction control leading to common slipping. Which directly wears tires. Hybrid vehicles generally have less torque so they have less this type of wear. Unless driven purposefully aggressively. Clear solution would be to limit acceleration of vehicles and mandate traction control that limits this type of wear.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    I'm surprised EVs don't all have traction control since there's already got to be a computerized control loop for motor drive at that power level. And slipping is an obvious problem when max torque is at zero RPM.
    - Ekaros 1y ago
      One reason could be to get those low 0-100 rates. When actually from 0 to low speed part of that really isn't important in most scenarios. 60 or 80 to 100 sure. But 0 to 20 not so much.
MagicMoonlight 1y ago
Please stop it with the tyre nonsense. The world is burning. Hundreds of millions people are going to die. We have a solution… and you won’t let us use it because it increases the rubber levels in people who lick tyres. As if that matters. So what if there are more rubber particles in their mouths? We can eliminate vehicle pollution!
- yourusername 1y ago
  Rubber particles from tires are one of the main sources of microplastics.
  - llampx 1y ago
    The tires that are "disposed of" in the third world and then burnt?
  - sfn42 1y ago
    I think the point of the person you replied to is that this stuff is comparably unimportant. Micro plastics are as far as I know not even known to be particularly harmful. It's more of a "this is probably bad" type of thing. And I'm not really sure what we're supposed to do about it, we already have huge plastic islands floating around. On the other hand, carbon emissions are known to cause global warming which will literally be the end of the world if we don't fix it fast. From what I've read it may already be too late, we may already be on course for runaway climate change that we may not be able to fix. To me that's a much more pressing matter.
    - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
      However the 6PPD used in tyres appears to be very toxic to some marine life and the tyre pollution gets washed off from the roads into rivers etc. It's the toxicity that's the issue. Poisoning the oceans does not seem like a good strategy for the human race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6PPD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6PPD
      - 1y ago
tlb 1y ago
The original Tesla Model S went through a set of tires every 15k miles, not because of anything inherent to EVs, but because they came standard with super-soft Michelin Pilot Sport tires which give slightly higher grip than high-mileage tires. You can put harder compound tires on that last 50 or 75k miles.
- jashmatthews 1y ago
  Yeah the older Pilot Sport tyres wore out quickly. I had PS4 before and now PS5 and they are wearing at something like half to a third as fast? Very happy. Only slightly less grip in cold weather.

slau 1y ago

Do you know where the increased tyre wear comes from? I run a PHEV, and if anything, my tyre wear has improved. This being said, I’ve noticed that many a “big EV” driver will take off from red lights like they’re driving a dragster.

jabl 1y ago
> This being said, I’ve noticed that many a “big EV” driver will take off from red lights like they’re driving a dragster. That would be my guess. Occasionally looking at specs from EV's coming on market, they seem to have very powerful engines, and of course the torque curve of electric motors is fantastic. So if you have such a car, and a heavy foot, I can well imagine you going through tires at a decent clip.
gmac 1y ago
Extra weight because of the battery, I think. Our EV is light for its size, but still 50% heavier than our previous ICE, of a similar size (Renault Scenic e-tech, 1.8 tonnes vs SEAT Leon ST, 1.2 tonnes). Though the additional acceleration probably does also make a difference.
m101 1y ago
Increased tire wear comes from the weight of the car and cornering. The tires need to do significantly more work in accelerating (the centrifugal kind) a car around corners at equal speed.
- gambiting 1y ago
  So obviously and logically speaking, an ICE car of equivalent weight should have the same tyre wear, and we know that's not true - there are some very heavy ICEs around which still manage to do 50k miles on a single set of tyres without any issue. EVs have instant torque from 0rpm and people use it and that's the main reason. Case in point - we have a Volkswagen e-Up, it barely weighs 1000kg, it's pretty much one of the lightest cars on the road. And yet it goes through its front tyres like nothing, and that's despite very modest power output of only 80bhp. But I do accelerate hard as it's so easy to do - so it's reflected in the tyre wear.
  - flakeoil 1y ago
    That should be easy to fix though with a bit of software.
  - m101 1y ago
    I agree there are effects of increased linear acceleration, however I disagree with you because of: On many roads you accelerate and brake less often than you go around corners. These two things are equivalent on tire wear given the forces involved: 1 corner at 50kmh with 50m radius. Accelerating linearly at 0.39g (7 second 0-100kmh) to 77kmh from 0.
    - gambiting 1y ago
      I don't think that's neccessarily a disagreement? Both things can be true - if you mostly drive on roads with fast corners, the heavier car will wear out its tyres faster. If you drive on roads with lots of start/stop traffic but not many "at speed" corners then the one that consistently accelerates harder will wear out its tyres quicker.
      - m101 1y ago
        Yes, it depends on how you drive and where, however I would note the above: 50kmh is typical of city driving and 50m isn't exactly a tight radius. 77kmh is actually quite fast, and 0.39g is actually quite high acceleration (this is flooring it in chill mode in a Tesla model y). I am trying to say that the driving circumstances where the linear forces are more important than the horizontal forces are fewer in number.
kube-system 1y ago
All else equal, the higher rate of BEV tire wear is primarily a function of their greater weight relative to comparable vehicles.
- gambiting 1y ago
  >>All else equal That's equivalent to those high school physics exercises that say "assume zero friction and no gravity". Everything else isn't equal with EVs because they make accelerating from standstill so effortless without any obvious downside that people do it back to back like it's nothing, while in an ICE you'd have to drive like a madman dumping the clutch every time just to get the same torque at the start. If you had two cars accelerating at the same rate then sure, the heavier one would wear out its tyres faster - but that's just not how people drive EVs(broadly speaking).
  - kube-system 1y ago
    There are EVs that aren't overpowered luxury cars. They also burn through tires faster. Also, if you compare two gasoline cars of different weights, the heavier one burns through tires quicker.
    - gambiting 1y ago
      That's exactly what I'm saying though. I have an EV that's only 1000kg and 80bhp and it goes through tyres like butter.
ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
It'll be the extra weight and greater torque.
Ekaros 1y ago
I think most reasonable explanation is likely very much increased torque and rather poor traction control leading to common slipping. Which directly wears tires. Hybrid vehicles generally have less torque so they have less this type of wear. Unless driven purposefully aggressively. Clear solution would be to limit acceleration of vehicles and mandate traction control that limits this type of wear.
- pjc50 1y ago
  I'm surprised EVs don't all have traction control since there's already got to be a computerized control loop for motor drive at that power level. And slipping is an obvious problem when max torque is at zero RPM.
  - Ekaros 1y ago
    One reason could be to get those low 0-100 rates. When actually from 0 to low speed part of that really isn't important in most scenarios. 60 or 80 to 100 sure. But 0 to 20 not so much.

MagicMoonlight 1y ago

Please stop it with the tyre nonsense. The world is burning. Hundreds of millions people are going to die. We have a solution… and you won’t let us use it because it increases the rubber levels in people who lick tyres. As if that matters. So what if there are more rubber particles in their mouths? We can eliminate vehicle pollution!

yourusername 1y ago
Rubber particles from tires are one of the main sources of microplastics.
- llampx 1y ago
  The tires that are "disposed of" in the third world and then burnt?
- sfn42 1y ago
  I think the point of the person you replied to is that this stuff is comparably unimportant. Micro plastics are as far as I know not even known to be particularly harmful. It's more of a "this is probably bad" type of thing. And I'm not really sure what we're supposed to do about it, we already have huge plastic islands floating around. On the other hand, carbon emissions are known to cause global warming which will literally be the end of the world if we don't fix it fast. From what I've read it may already be too late, we may already be on course for runaway climate change that we may not be able to fix. To me that's a much more pressing matter.
  - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
    However the 6PPD used in tyres appears to be very toxic to some marine life and the tyre pollution gets washed off from the roads into rivers etc. It's the toxicity that's the issue. Poisoning the oceans does not seem like a good strategy for the human race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6PPD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6PPD
    - 1y ago

tlb 1y ago

The original Tesla Model S went through a set of tires every 15k miles, not because of anything inherent to EVs, but because they came standard with super-soft Michelin Pilot Sport tires which give slightly higher grip than high-mileage tires. You can put harder compound tires on that last 50 or 75k miles.

jashmatthews 1y ago
Yeah the older Pilot Sport tyres wore out quickly. I had PS4 before and now PS5 and they are wearing at something like half to a third as fast? Very happy. Only slightly less grip in cold weather.