3 ms·

Could it be time for the US to look towards European declaration of human rights and define political views, or any world views for that matter, to be equally w

by belorn 1y ago

Could it be time for the US to look towards European declaration of human rights and define political views, or any world views for that matter, to be equally worth defining as a protected class as for people who visit a holy place regularly. None should be looking at people's social media for undesirable political views, no more than they should dig into peoples life to determine if they are a devout something.

chneu 1y ago
Won't ever happen. Americans believe we're exceptional. The mere idea of copying Europe is dead in the water before you can explain why it's a good idea. You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after we've tried everything else.
- bamboozled 1y ago
  Americans believe we're exceptional. This attitude and culture will probably be the downfall of the USA. Trump personifies this view and takes it to extremes, he basically talks as if whatever he says is all that matters and nothing else is important. Going to learn the hard way, that's for sure.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    "Hard way", sure; just don't count on the "learning" part. I'm a British national. When I left the UK in 2018, people were still talking about Dunkirk like it was a British victory rather than a rolling defeat whose only (even then partially) successful component was the final evacuation; about WW2 like it was a simple victory rather than a Pyrrhic victory; and about the Empire like the end of it was the UK's choice.
  - tremon 1y ago
    Going to learn the hard way, that's for sure. I don't share your positive outlook. There's at least two other likely scenario's: - a large part of the country might not learn at all - the only lessons being learned are about how to stay in power
josefritzishere 1y ago
There will be naysayers but eventually the US passed HIPAA and caught up to Europe on that topic.
dmonitor 1y ago
It depends how they define "political views". Ethnic cleansing is a political view, and I think it deserves some scrutiny
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  In the US, we love ethnic cleansing now. It's the actual policy of our current president.
- belorn 1y ago
  US has had periods of wild spread moral panic around satanic worshipping, including murder trials where such ideas became central to the cases. Scrutinizing belifs generally don't lead to anything but misery for everyone involved. This is very different from scrutinize crime that has happened. The only grey area is the role of secret police. Some people, possible a majority, do want the government to scrutinize belifs and political views in order to determen risk. I am less sure, but I also know that human rights and protected classes has less protection against risk assessments conducted by the secret police.
tremon 1y ago
Maybe a nitpick, but there is no European Declaration of Human Rights. To unweave the web of confusingly similarly named documents: 1) The 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights [0] which was written by the United Nations (with Eleanor Roosevelt as the committee chair). As a Declaration, the document itself has no legal weight, and the US has only ratified three out of nine core treaties that are based on it. One of them is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [1], which does seem applicable here. Before rejoicing however, consider that the other two treaties that the US has ratified are the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination [2] and the United Nations Convention Against Torture [3] -- so don't expect any miracles here. [0] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICCPR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICCPR [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICERD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICERD [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCAT For reference, ACLU fact sheet from 2013 about the US' track record on human rights: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/121013-humanrightsfacts.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/121013-human... (PDF) 2) The European Convention on Human Rights [4], which is both a document and a court where human rights violations can be tried. Its jurisdiction is all members of the Council of Europe [5], which is broader than just the European Union (even Russia used to be a member, but was kicked out after the invasion of Ukraine). The EU requires all members to ratify the ECHR as one of the conditions of membership. [4] https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-convention/ https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-convention/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_europe For reference, the text itself: https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Convention_ENG https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Convention_ENG (PDF) 3) The EU itself has a Charter of Fundamental Rights [6] which covers the same topics. From what I could find, the main reason for the name change is that the EU fundamental rights are broader than the international human rights, so this avoids confusion when discussing either in international contexts. [6] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:charter_fundamental_rights https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... For reference, explore the Charter: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/title/title-i-dignity https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/title/title-i-dignity

by belorn 1y ago

chneu 1y ago

Won't ever happen. Americans believe we're exceptional. The mere idea of copying Europe is dead in the water before you can explain why it's a good idea. You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after we've tried everything else.

bamboozled 1y ago
Americans believe we're exceptional. This attitude and culture will probably be the downfall of the USA. Trump personifies this view and takes it to extremes, he basically talks as if whatever he says is all that matters and nothing else is important. Going to learn the hard way, that's for sure.
- ben_w 1y ago
  "Hard way", sure; just don't count on the "learning" part. I'm a British national. When I left the UK in 2018, people were still talking about Dunkirk like it was a British victory rather than a rolling defeat whose only (even then partially) successful component was the final evacuation; about WW2 like it was a simple victory rather than a Pyrrhic victory; and about the Empire like the end of it was the UK's choice.
- tremon 1y ago
  Going to learn the hard way, that's for sure. I don't share your positive outlook. There's at least two other likely scenario's: - a large part of the country might not learn at all - the only lessons being learned are about how to stay in power

josefritzishere 1y ago

There will be naysayers but eventually the US passed HIPAA and caught up to Europe on that topic.

dmonitor 1y ago

It depends how they define "political views". Ethnic cleansing is a political view, and I think it deserves some scrutiny

amanaplanacanal 1y ago
In the US, we love ethnic cleansing now. It's the actual policy of our current president.
belorn 1y ago
US has had periods of wild spread moral panic around satanic worshipping, including murder trials where such ideas became central to the cases. Scrutinizing belifs generally don't lead to anything but misery for everyone involved. This is very different from scrutinize crime that has happened. The only grey area is the role of secret police. Some people, possible a majority, do want the government to scrutinize belifs and political views in order to determen risk. I am less sure, but I also know that human rights and protected classes has less protection against risk assessments conducted by the secret police.

tremon 1y ago

Maybe a nitpick, but there is no European Declaration of Human Rights. To unweave the web of confusingly similarly named documents: 1) The 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights [0] which was written by the United Nations (with Eleanor Roosevelt as the committee chair). As a Declaration, the document itself has no legal weight, and the US has only ratified three out of nine core treaties that are based on it. One of them is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [1], which does seem applicable here. Before rejoicing however, consider that the other two treaties that the US has ratified are the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination [2] and the United Nations Convention Against Torture [3] -- so don't expect any miracles here. [0] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICCPR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICCPR [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICERD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICERD [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCAT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCAT For reference, ACLU fact sheet from 2013 about the US' track record on human rights: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/121013-humanrightsfacts.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/121013-human... (PDF) 2) The European Convention on Human Rights [4], which is both a document and a court where human rights violations can be tried. Its jurisdiction is all members of the Council of Europe [5], which is broader than just the European Union (even Russia used to be a member, but was kicked out after the invasion of Ukraine). The EU requires all members to ratify the ECHR as one of the conditions of membership. [4] https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-convention/ https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-convention/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_europe For reference, the text itself: https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Convention_ENG https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Convention_ENG (PDF) 3) The EU itself has a Charter of Fundamental Rights [6] which covers the same topics. From what I could find, the main reason for the name change is that the EU fundamental rights are broader than the international human rights, so this avoids confusion when discussing either in international contexts. [6] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:charter_fundamental_rights https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... For reference, explore the Charter: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/title/title-i-dignity https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/title/title-i-dignity