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Ironically, I think the biggest dissonance is between two terms you grouped together: "learning/training". What universities were (and still are) really great

Ironically, I think the biggest dissonance is between two terms you grouped together: "learning/training". What universities were (and still are) really great at is being a place for intense learning. What 99% of their customers now want is vocational training to get a well paying job. Exactly because of the status/prestige (+ government incentives + being very far from a free market), customers that don't really want what the university is selling are attending in droves.

gota 1y ago
Of varying importance for different groups/cohorts - going to college because it the rite of passage for adulthood.
Henchman21 1y ago
Related to this is the death of vocational studies at the high school level. EVERYTHING is "college prep" and there is no other course. Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training.
- al_borland 1y ago
  I went to school in a more rural area. In high school we had the option to spend half the day at the vocational school in the next town over learning the trades. Our senior year they also had an assembly to tell us all that statistics were against us in college and only 15% would graduate, so we shouldn’t try. My nephews are about to enter that same high school about 25 years later. From what I’ve gleaned, they still have the program for vocational training. I think the kids went on a field trip there is middle school.
- bsder 1y ago
  > Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training. Could they? This is a perennial HN complaint; however, the salaries for jobs that vocational schools would train your for show very little pressure to increase. That doesn't indicate some mythical pent up demand that a bunch of new vocational students could slot into. Most people are going to college because they want to avoid working at the equivalent of an Amazon warehouse. If you can give them a way to do that, they'll happily skip going to a university.
  - jmb99 1y ago
    Being an electrician or plumber is substantially less soul-crushing than an Amazon warehouse, and if you’re good, pays a hell of a lot better.
    - Henchman21 1y ago
      All the electricians and operating engineers in the data centers I work at do quite well. We aren't going to need less of that skill set.
    - bsder 1y ago
      Is the pay better? https://www.sotxjatc.org/ https://www.sotxjatc.org/ The pay seems pretty comparable to an Amazon warehouse until you pass at least 3 years of training. And not everybody gets to wire up air conditioned data centers. A lot of wiring is outside in the hot sun climbing up and down ladders. If the salaries were significantly better, I should think we'd see a lot of people beating down the doors to be electricians, but we don't ...
      - jmb99 1y ago
        The Amazon warehouse across the street from me pays ~$19/h (CAD). Minimum wage is $17.20. Electrician apprentices make $20-28/h. Once you’re licensed you’re pretty much guaranteed $30+/h, most break $40/h pretty quick if they’re good. If you start your own company (which isn’t that hard here!) you’re probably closer to $60-100/h depending on skill, niche, client base, and luck. Plumbing is pretty similar but the ceiling’s probably triple that of electricians. Trade school is so cheap it’s almost free. (My brother just finished an automotive mechanic program, I think his total out-of-pocket cost was like $1500 for a few years of school + apprenticeship, and he was making $30/h by the end of the apprenticeship. He’s now at around $36/h iirc, less than a year out of the program.) I don’t believe it’s possible to make even apprentice money as an Amazon warehouse worker here. Maybe as a floor manager. And yes, obviously trades aren’t sunshine and rainbows, but if you have even a modicum of motivation you’re better off there than packing boxes.
- gilbetron 1y ago
  I live in a prominent college town, and all of the high schools around here have a lot of vocational studies. There is a multi-year track where students actually build an entire house, for instance. I found it surprising and a really good thing. Now, none of it is required, which I think it should be a little bit. But vocational studies is definitely alive in this area.
echelon 1y ago
> What universities were (and still are) really great at is being a place for intense learning. Are they? A lot of professors hate and/or are bad at teaching. Especially at R1 research universities. There are lots of problems, specifically for undergrads: - Large class sizes - Professors that don't like teaching - Professors that can't teach well - Professors that hand off teaching to TAs, RAs, doctoral students, etc. - Poor feedback on homework, essays, projects, and exams - Unnecessary classes - Outdated classes and curriculum - Sports programs that serve as recruitment and distraction that are orthogonal to learning - Admin structures that care more about facilities, growth, and recruitment than learning and research - Systems that are "too big to fail" - Student loans that are disconnected from bankruptcy, which feeds a recursively growing monster in such a way that it isn't exposed to evolutionary pressures. There is no risk, so malinvestment doesn't bear consequences. > What 99% of their customers now want is vocational training to get a well paying job. You can want a curriculum rich in theory and the vocational training for a well-paying job. The problem is that universities are full of perverse incentives - the admin and faculty are at odds, and often even the faculty itself isn't aligned with teaching. It's a weird org structure steeped in tradition, nostalgia from alumnus, and a faculty tenure system that doesn't always reward the right things.

gota 1y ago

Of varying importance for different groups/cohorts - going to college because it the rite of passage for adulthood.

Henchman21 1y ago

Related to this is the death of vocational studies at the high school level. EVERYTHING is "college prep" and there is no other course. Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training.

al_borland 1y ago
I went to school in a more rural area. In high school we had the option to spend half the day at the vocational school in the next town over learning the trades. Our senior year they also had an assembly to tell us all that statistics were against us in college and only 15% would graduate, so we shouldn’t try. My nephews are about to enter that same high school about 25 years later. From what I’ve gleaned, they still have the program for vocational training. I think the kids went on a field trip there is middle school.
bsder 1y ago
> Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training. Could they? This is a perennial HN complaint; however, the salaries for jobs that vocational schools would train your for show very little pressure to increase. That doesn't indicate some mythical pent up demand that a bunch of new vocational students could slot into. Most people are going to college because they want to avoid working at the equivalent of an Amazon warehouse. If you can give them a way to do that, they'll happily skip going to a university.
- jmb99 1y ago
  Being an electrician or plumber is substantially less soul-crushing than an Amazon warehouse, and if you’re good, pays a hell of a lot better.
  - Henchman21 1y ago
    All the electricians and operating engineers in the data centers I work at do quite well. We aren't going to need less of that skill set.
  - bsder 1y ago
    Is the pay better? https://www.sotxjatc.org/ https://www.sotxjatc.org/ The pay seems pretty comparable to an Amazon warehouse until you pass at least 3 years of training. And not everybody gets to wire up air conditioned data centers. A lot of wiring is outside in the hot sun climbing up and down ladders. If the salaries were significantly better, I should think we'd see a lot of people beating down the doors to be electricians, but we don't ...
    - jmb99 1y ago
      The Amazon warehouse across the street from me pays ~$19/h (CAD). Minimum wage is $17.20. Electrician apprentices make $20-28/h. Once you’re licensed you’re pretty much guaranteed $30+/h, most break $40/h pretty quick if they’re good. If you start your own company (which isn’t that hard here!) you’re probably closer to $60-100/h depending on skill, niche, client base, and luck. Plumbing is pretty similar but the ceiling’s probably triple that of electricians. Trade school is so cheap it’s almost free. (My brother just finished an automotive mechanic program, I think his total out-of-pocket cost was like $1500 for a few years of school + apprenticeship, and he was making $30/h by the end of the apprenticeship. He’s now at around $36/h iirc, less than a year out of the program.) I don’t believe it’s possible to make even apprentice money as an Amazon warehouse worker here. Maybe as a floor manager. And yes, obviously trades aren’t sunshine and rainbows, but if you have even a modicum of motivation you’re better off there than packing boxes.
gilbetron 1y ago
I live in a prominent college town, and all of the high schools around here have a lot of vocational studies. There is a multi-year track where students actually build an entire house, for instance. I found it surprising and a really good thing. Now, none of it is required, which I think it should be a little bit. But vocational studies is definitely alive in this area.

echelon 1y ago

> What universities were (and still are) really great at is being a place for intense learning. Are they? A lot of professors hate and/or are bad at teaching. Especially at R1 research universities. There are lots of problems, specifically for undergrads: - Large class sizes - Professors that don't like teaching - Professors that can't teach well - Professors that hand off teaching to TAs, RAs, doctoral students, etc. - Poor feedback on homework, essays, projects, and exams - Unnecessary classes - Outdated classes and curriculum - Sports programs that serve as recruitment and distraction that are orthogonal to learning - Admin structures that care more about facilities, growth, and recruitment than learning and research - Systems that are "too big to fail" - Student loans that are disconnected from bankruptcy, which feeds a recursively growing monster in such a way that it isn't exposed to evolutionary pressures. There is no risk, so malinvestment doesn't bear consequences. > What 99% of their customers now want is vocational training to get a well paying job. You can want a curriculum rich in theory and the vocational training for a well-paying job. The problem is that universities are full of perverse incentives - the admin and faculty are at odds, and often even the faculty itself isn't aligned with teaching. It's a weird org structure steeped in tradition, nostalgia from alumnus, and a faculty tenure system that doesn't always reward the right things.