7 ms·

I hope what this policy amounts to is declining visas to students who support proscribed terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizballah, broadcast blood libel

I hope what this policy amounts to is declining visas to students who support proscribed terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizballah, broadcast blood libels, harass Jewish students on campus, etc. I had a foreign (Pakistani) student tell me, to my face, "I don't like you because you're a Jew." -- in front of a group of mutual friends, who awkwardly laughed it off as if he must have been joking. It's _not_ about mere criticism of Israeli policy or war doctrine, and pretending it is seems to be a new popular misperception on both the far left and the far right. This was a very real thing when I was an undergrad, and it's surely much worse today. I have family with long histories of attending Ivy League schools, and their seniors are no longer applying to those schools, entirely over antisemitism. If American universities were 1/3 populated by, say, Russian students with a high propensity for harassing gay students, implying that all gay people are predators, etc., I think the left-leaning commenters here would take a very different perspective.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> what this policy amounts to is declining visas to students who support proscribed terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizballah, broadcast blood libels, harass Jewish students, on campus, etc. I dressed up as Ghadaffi in college for a party. Not because I knew almost anything about the man. But because it was edgy and adolescent brains are dumb, particularly when male. Plenty of students who will go on to be good and productive members of society hold stupid views now, possibly most given the state of scial media. This move, in particular, comes across as in particularly bad faith inasmuch as it's being done by the man who pardoned the January 6th nutters. Actual violent criminals subscribing to terrorist tactics.
vFunct 1y ago
[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Shouldn't we increase visas to those that support Hamas and Hezbollah? No. It is perfectly acceptable for a society to have norms and conventions it wants those seeking to enter it to uphold. One of those is not accepting violence as a political tactic.
  - vFunct 1y ago
    If that were true, then that society would not maintain an army or a police force, to enforce its political goals. Violence is fundamental to political tactics.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Violence is fundamental to political tactics You're confusing law and politics. They're intrinsically related. And there is not a natural separation. But if there is a single corollary to the rule of law, it is in the integrity of that separation.
  - dttze 1y ago
    So we should be banning Israelis from entering. They openly use violence as a political tactic.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > we should be banning Israelis from entering. They openly use violence as a political tactic No, that is—ironically—collective punishment.
      - vFunct 1y ago
        You're confusing law and politics.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        It's not ironic whatsoever. Dahiya Doctrine ring any bells?
- endtime 1y ago
  > Why would you want to reduce visas for those that support proscribed "terrorist organizations"? Because they want to murder me and my family.
  - vFunct 1y ago
    Did you try not being the bad guy? You DON'T have to kill children to steal their land, you know? You can totally not do that.
TrackerFF 1y ago
A massive problem in the current climate is that the middle-ground has been eroded. There are only two states: pro- or anti-Israel. For example, if you show solidarity for killed children in Gaza, that also means that you're by proxy pro-Hamas, because Palestine = Hamas. Thus you can not be pro-Israel, and must be anti-Israel. Likewise we've come to the point where you can say: "I feel for the Israeli people after the October 7 attacks, but I don't like the Israeli government". You automatically get classified as something other than pro-Israel, and, thus anti-Israel. The middle ground has eroded. And with the Trump administration being what it is, I have zero faith that they'll see it any other way.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > There are only two states: pro- or anti-Israel Not really. I take the third option: I don't know enough about the situation to reach almost any policy recommendation with high confidence. Not engaging is always an option, particularly when you're dealing solely with rhetoric and not any fundamental action. (Obviously, if you're greenlighting weapons purchases your duty of care is higher.)
  - ujkhsjkdhf234 1y ago
    You don't need to recommend any policy. Simply saying "I don't support genocide" will illicit a negative response from the pro Israel side of things and puts you in the "against" category.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Simply saying "I don't support genocide" will illicit a negative response from the pro Israel side of things and puts you in the "against" category Sure. But declining to use the term "genocide" similarly illicits a negative response from a lot of the pro Palestinian side. Single-issue advocates will tend to dislike you if you don't take their position on an issue. That doesn't mean anyone has to. (My pet war was Ukraine. I, similarly, took a dim view of anyone who described Russia's invasion as a defensive war. And I'd similarly argue with folks who thought what happens in Ukraine has nothing to do with America's security, though I hope I was more respectful than the status quo with Gaza.)
dttze 1y ago
Weird you mention a brown person, and not the various white nationalist ZOG types who actually go and shoot up synagogues. Also how did you even know he was Pakistani or a student?
- endtime 1y ago
  I'm talking about my actual experience, and I know he was Pakistani because we had mutual friends. He dated one of them. I know exactly who he was. What a bizarre comment. I didn't have any similar experience with any white international students.
  - dttze 1y ago
    That was what, 10+ years ago? There have been multiple terrorist attacks on synagogues by white men since then, and somehow this is still what you posted about antisemitism. Do you think we should strip citizenship from and remove white men who are antisemites?

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> what this policy amounts to is declining visas to students who support proscribed terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizballah, broadcast blood libels, harass Jewish students, on campus, etc. I dressed up as Ghadaffi in college for a party. Not because I knew almost anything about the man. But because it was edgy and adolescent brains are dumb, particularly when male. Plenty of students who will go on to be good and productive members of society hold stupid views now, possibly most given the state of scial media. This move, in particular, comes across as in particularly bad faith inasmuch as it's being done by the man who pardoned the January 6th nutters. Actual violent criminals subscribing to terrorist tactics.

vFunct 1y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Shouldn't we increase visas to those that support Hamas and Hezbollah? No. It is perfectly acceptable for a society to have norms and conventions it wants those seeking to enter it to uphold. One of those is not accepting violence as a political tactic.
- vFunct 1y ago
  If that were true, then that society would not maintain an army or a police force, to enforce its political goals. Violence is fundamental to political tactics.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Violence is fundamental to political tactics You're confusing law and politics. They're intrinsically related. And there is not a natural separation. But if there is a single corollary to the rule of law, it is in the integrity of that separation.
- dttze 1y ago
  So we should be banning Israelis from entering. They openly use violence as a political tactic.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > we should be banning Israelis from entering. They openly use violence as a political tactic No, that is—ironically—collective punishment.
    - vFunct 1y ago
      You're confusing law and politics.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      It's not ironic whatsoever. Dahiya Doctrine ring any bells?
endtime 1y ago
> Why would you want to reduce visas for those that support proscribed "terrorist organizations"? Because they want to murder me and my family.
- vFunct 1y ago
  Did you try not being the bad guy? You DON'T have to kill children to steal their land, you know? You can totally not do that.

TrackerFF 1y ago

A massive problem in the current climate is that the middle-ground has been eroded. There are only two states: pro- or anti-Israel. For example, if you show solidarity for killed children in Gaza, that also means that you're by proxy pro-Hamas, because Palestine = Hamas. Thus you can not be pro-Israel, and must be anti-Israel. Likewise we've come to the point where you can say: "I feel for the Israeli people after the October 7 attacks, but I don't like the Israeli government". You automatically get classified as something other than pro-Israel, and, thus anti-Israel. The middle ground has eroded. And with the Trump administration being what it is, I have zero faith that they'll see it any other way.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> There are only two states: pro- or anti-Israel Not really. I take the third option: I don't know enough about the situation to reach almost any policy recommendation with high confidence. Not engaging is always an option, particularly when you're dealing solely with rhetoric and not any fundamental action. (Obviously, if you're greenlighting weapons purchases your duty of care is higher.)
- ujkhsjkdhf234 1y ago
  You don't need to recommend any policy. Simply saying "I don't support genocide" will illicit a negative response from the pro Israel side of things and puts you in the "against" category.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Simply saying "I don't support genocide" will illicit a negative response from the pro Israel side of things and puts you in the "against" category Sure. But declining to use the term "genocide" similarly illicits a negative response from a lot of the pro Palestinian side. Single-issue advocates will tend to dislike you if you don't take their position on an issue. That doesn't mean anyone has to. (My pet war was Ukraine. I, similarly, took a dim view of anyone who described Russia's invasion as a defensive war. And I'd similarly argue with folks who thought what happens in Ukraine has nothing to do with America's security, though I hope I was more respectful than the status quo with Gaza.)

dttze 1y ago

Weird you mention a brown person, and not the various white nationalist ZOG types who actually go and shoot up synagogues. Also how did you even know he was Pakistani or a student?

endtime 1y ago
I'm talking about my actual experience, and I know he was Pakistani because we had mutual friends. He dated one of them. I know exactly who he was. What a bizarre comment. I didn't have any similar experience with any white international students.
- dttze 1y ago
  That was what, 10+ years ago? There have been multiple terrorist attacks on synagogues by white men since then, and somehow this is still what you posted about antisemitism. Do you think we should strip citizenship from and remove white men who are antisemites?