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PowerPC and POWER are not the same. PowerPC was created because Apple allied with IBM, but they wanted Motorola as a supplier. So they basically changed Motorol

PowerPC and POWER are not the same. PowerPC was created because Apple allied with IBM, but they wanted Motorola as a supplier. So they basically changed Motorola own RISC chip into something POWER like. OpenPOWER used to be restricted, but because RISC-V absolutely crush the OpenPOWER fake marketing with being really open, OpenPOWER (like MIPS) after a few years have changed and are now more like RISC-V.

MisterTea 1y ago
No, The AIM alliance's goal was to create a standard Power architecture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance PPC Mac is the same PPC that Motorola developed and marketed. The key difference lies in the platform as Power PC is just a CPU ISA, it does not define a platform which includes hardware layout and booting. So you cant just buy a Motorola chip and boot MacOS because MacOS expects a Power Macintosh complete with Power Macintosh hardware and firmware. Arm and Risc-V also do not define a platform. IBM is the one who developed a standard hardware and firmware design, the BIOS, for the Intel 8086 and thus the PC was born. The PC platform is why we think of computers as general purpose machine that boot any OS. Outside of that ecosystem it's a big mess. Arm and Risc-v do not define platforms which is not a good situation.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  Arm does indeed define a platform, it's called SBSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architectur...
  - lizknope 1y ago
    You are right but the only systems I have seen that support it are servers or expensive workstations from Ampere and maybe 1 or 2 others. I feel like 99% of the ARM based computing devices that people can buy for under $2000 have non standard boot systems. Do any of the Qualcomm ARM based laptops support an open boto standard? In contrast I feel like 99% of x86 based computing devices under $2000 have standard boot systems where anyone can boot windows or Linux on them with minimal issues.
  - MisterTea 1y ago
    Please point me to a cost effective general purpose Arm computer that uses SBSA.
    - Y_Y 1y ago
      https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/honeycomb-lx2/ https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/h...
      - MisterTea 1y ago
        I know this board and it is not general purpose. This is not designed to watch videos, play games or browse the web. Again, show me a general purpose Arm computer that is made for the average user.
        lizknope 1y ago
        It looks like something for a router or network switch. No graphics but it does have an open PCIE x8 slot. The ARM A72 is now a 9 year old CPU core. The reviews of this board are all from 4 years ago. It looks like their newer similar products have a Ryzen core that is a lot faster. Here is an Ampere workstation but it is $3300. In my other post in this thread I mentioned $2000 as the price limit. Most consumers are not going to spend more than that on a computer. https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure
- snvzz 1y ago
  >RISC-V do not define a platform. With a very strictly narrow lens, RISC-V is just the ISA. In reality, a major part of RISC-V International standardization effort goes into non-ISA specs, which include the platform specs, a major focus from early on. This is e.g. how I am able to run my VisionFive2 with a generic Debian kernel. It would be unthinkable on ARM.
  - MisterTea 1y ago
    It's unfortunate that the spec avoided designing a clean solution to a simple problem and drags in the complexity of PC baggage such as ACPI and UEFI to avoid doing work.
    - snvzz 1y ago
      >to avoid doing work The problem with "doing work" is that work does take time. Being late means widespread non-standardized, bespoke vendor specific solutions. Exactly the one thing RISC-V International strongly wants to avoid. Won't go into judging ACPI and UEFI, and how misunderstood or desirable they are. RISC-V chose to adopt these, and to standardize what the baseline platform is, and specify how ACPI and UEFI are implemented.
      - panick21_ 1y ago
        Even if some their ideas are desirable, the execution very much isn't.
sillywalk 1y ago
> PowerPC and POWER are not the same. AIUI PowerPC is essentially an extended (original) POWER. The AIM alliance defined PowerPC which had 32bit and 64 bit modes, and IBM also added ISA extensions - the PowerPC AS or "Amazon" - for its AS/400 line. When the POWER3 came around, the original 32Bit POWER ISA was deprecated, but still included for backwards compatibility. So all POWER chips since then implement the PowerPC ISA.
- panick21_ 1y ago
  Thanks for clearing that up.

MisterTea 1y ago

No, The AIM alliance's goal was to create a standard Power architecture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance PPC Mac is the same PPC that Motorola developed and marketed. The key difference lies in the platform as Power PC is just a CPU ISA, it does not define a platform which includes hardware layout and booting. So you cant just buy a Motorola chip and boot MacOS because MacOS expects a Power Macintosh complete with Power Macintosh hardware and firmware. Arm and Risc-V also do not define a platform. IBM is the one who developed a standard hardware and firmware design, the BIOS, for the Intel 8086 and thus the PC was born. The PC platform is why we think of computers as general purpose machine that boot any OS. Outside of that ecosystem it's a big mess. Arm and Risc-v do not define platforms which is not a good situation.

Y_Y 1y ago
Arm does indeed define a platform, it's called SBSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architectur...
- lizknope 1y ago
  You are right but the only systems I have seen that support it are servers or expensive workstations from Ampere and maybe 1 or 2 others. I feel like 99% of the ARM based computing devices that people can buy for under $2000 have non standard boot systems. Do any of the Qualcomm ARM based laptops support an open boto standard? In contrast I feel like 99% of x86 based computing devices under $2000 have standard boot systems where anyone can boot windows or Linux on them with minimal issues.
- MisterTea 1y ago
  Please point me to a cost effective general purpose Arm computer that uses SBSA.
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/honeycomb-lx2/ https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/h...
    - MisterTea 1y ago
      I know this board and it is not general purpose. This is not designed to watch videos, play games or browse the web. Again, show me a general purpose Arm computer that is made for the average user.
      - lizknope 1y ago
        It looks like something for a router or network switch. No graphics but it does have an open PCIE x8 slot. The ARM A72 is now a 9 year old CPU core. The reviews of this board are all from 4 years ago. It looks like their newer similar products have a Ryzen core that is a lot faster. Here is an Ampere workstation but it is $3300. In my other post in this thread I mentioned $2000 as the price limit. Most consumers are not going to spend more than that on a computer. https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure
snvzz 1y ago
>RISC-V do not define a platform. With a very strictly narrow lens, RISC-V is just the ISA. In reality, a major part of RISC-V International standardization effort goes into non-ISA specs, which include the platform specs, a major focus from early on. This is e.g. how I am able to run my VisionFive2 with a generic Debian kernel. It would be unthinkable on ARM.
- MisterTea 1y ago
  It's unfortunate that the spec avoided designing a clean solution to a simple problem and drags in the complexity of PC baggage such as ACPI and UEFI to avoid doing work.
  - snvzz 1y ago
    >to avoid doing work The problem with "doing work" is that work does take time. Being late means widespread non-standardized, bespoke vendor specific solutions. Exactly the one thing RISC-V International strongly wants to avoid. Won't go into judging ACPI and UEFI, and how misunderstood or desirable they are. RISC-V chose to adopt these, and to standardize what the baseline platform is, and specify how ACPI and UEFI are implemented.
    - panick21_ 1y ago
      Even if some their ideas are desirable, the execution very much isn't.

sillywalk 1y ago

> PowerPC and POWER are not the same. AIUI PowerPC is essentially an extended (original) POWER. The AIM alliance defined PowerPC which had 32bit and 64 bit modes, and IBM also added ISA extensions - the PowerPC AS or "Amazon" - for its AS/400 line. When the POWER3 came around, the original 32Bit POWER ISA was deprecated, but still included for backwards compatibility. So all POWER chips since then implement the PowerPC ISA.

panick21_ 1y ago
Thanks for clearing that up.