5 ms·

Calendars, Contacts and Files in Stalwart

132 points by gpi 1y ago

FlamingMoe 1y ago
Cool! I love anything in the direction of email decentralization.
pluto_modadic 1y ago
glad the focus returns to this instead of ML stuff.
jazzyjackson 1y ago
NLnet out here funding another banger
throw_a_grenade 1y ago
What is the reason to pick Stalwart over Nextcloud? Nextcloud also has calendars, contacts, files, and integrated mail client. And a reasonably sized ecosystem of apps.
- dwedge 1y ago
  Stalwart is also a mailserver
- mxuribe 1y ago
  While I am happy for areas of competition - since they lead to choice - I also like it when there are partnerships....Nextcloud either acquired or partners with RoundCube, and separately also partners with collabora for the Office suite offering....so might be great if Nextcloud and Stalwart had some sort of partnership for mutual benefit.
  - hex-m 1y ago
    The partnership between Nextcloud and Stalwart was announced 4 months ago: https://nextcloud.com/blog/press_releases/nextcloud-stalwart-partnership/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/press_releases/nextcloud-stalwart...
    - mxuribe 1y ago
      That's awesome, thanks for sharing!
hatzz 1y ago
I’ve always found stalwart interesting but have been a bit sceptical due to the main developer being quite anonymous. It seems that there is a company behind it as well "Stalwart Labs" but I cannot find information about it either, no linkedin and no people. I might just be used to openess as in devs not being anonymous though.
- StalwartLabs 1y ago
  I understand your perspective, many open source communities are built on transparency, and it's natural to want to know the people behind a project. That said, I personally value privacy highly, which is actually one of the main reasons I started Stalwart Mail Server. I don't maintain a personal presence on LinkedIn or other social media platforms, not because I'm trying to be anonymous, but because I prefer to focus on the work rather than promoting myself. I’ve found that platforms like LinkedIn are more noise than signal for me, especially with constant recruiter spam. That being said, Stalwart Labs as a company is far from hidden. You can find our company page on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/company/stalwartlabs/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/stalwartlabs/. We're also active on: * Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@stalwartlabs https://mastodon.social/@stalwartlabs * Twitter/X: https://x.com/stalwartlabs https://x.com/stalwartlabs * Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/stalwartlabs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/stalwartlabs/ While I may not be putting my personal life on display, I’m committed to transparency where it matters most: through the project’s code, documentation, and community engagement. I hope that helps clarify things!
  - hatzz 1y ago
    I feel you as I also value my privacy however i believe there is a difference between anonymity and privacy: a completely unknown entity and a person which personal life is not on the internet. There is a lot of trust involved especially with something as important as an email server which is extremely important for businesses. It's this and the project being maintained by a solo developer (unless it's a pseudonym for multiple people :D) that makes me not want to personally rely on it. I'm not only here to complain though, it's an awesome project and I find it really impressive for someone to build a mailserver (and other features) from scratch. Thank you for investing time in open source implementations of protocols that run the world. Follow up questions: What are the thoughts about enterprise and business support? I see that it exists but I believe there is a lot of trust involved ^^. Will there be more developers, open source, knowing the people behind the project and or support people? Do you have any customers today?
matja 1y ago
This is interesting because Stalwart has a built-in clustering feature and can use distributed databases as its storage layer, so you get high-availability options out of the box. I've struggled with doing similar HA on Dovecot, never quite being true HA (for the open source version of Dovecot) for a while and never found a good other open source option.
mjl- 1y ago
Congrats on the release! Having calendaring (and address book) along with your email makes it easy to run your own self-hosted PIM infrastructure.
- StalwartLabs 1y ago
  Thanks! :-)
lb_ 1y ago
I really like where Stalwart is going, but I am quite hesitant to use it when basically all commits are authored by a single person. What would happen if he abandons the project or disappears?
- miroljub 1y ago
  Why not? If it goes away, it would take years until it rots and becomes unusable. And given that it uses open standard, it would be pretty simple to take a backup (which you should be doing regularly anyways) and move somewhere else.
rossy 1y ago
I checked my repo to see which Stalwart version I was running and if I could update, and I was surprised to find that the Arch package has been deleted due to FOSS licensing concerns[1], the most severe of which seems to be that Stalwart can no longer build without proprietary code[2]. Other smaller issues include the fact that the web admin interface isn't included in the source distribution, but is downloaded from GitHub on first run, and _also_ seems to contain proprietary code[3]. These issues, which would be showstoppers for a real free software project, and pretty easy to fix if you were the rightsholder of the code, were promised to be fixed "in a few weeks" in September last year, and "in a few months" in January this year, however they're still not fixed, which means I can't upgrade - not that I probably want to anymore. I truly believe in free software, so I find the idea of using "open source" as an empty marketing bullet-point for at least eight months to be fairly distasteful. Might be time to switch to Maddy. [1]: https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/stalwart-mail-server/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/st... [2]: https://github.com/stalwartlabs/stalwart/issues/783 https://github.com/stalwartlabs/stalwart/issues/783 [3]: https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/stalwart-mail-server/-/issues/1#note_211407 https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/st...
- StalwartLabs 1y ago
  I want to clarify that Stalwart can absolutely be compiled without any proprietary code. All you need to do is omit the Enterprise feature flag during compilation [0], and what you get is a 100% AGPL-3.0 build. The Arch package removal wasn’t because the software suddenly became non-free, but rather due to a packaging requirement: Arch needs a clean separation of the Enterprise code from the source tree, and that’s something we haven’t done yet (it will be implemented as a script). The delay isn’t due to any unwillingness to comply, it’s simply been a matter of prioritization. Over the past few months, the focus was on delivering major features like WebDAV support. That said, I'm still fully committed to resolving the packaging issue because we want Stalwart back in Arch as much as you do. It’s also worth noting that only about 5% of the codebase is Enterprise, and that small slice helps fund ongoing development and expansion of the team [1]. As much as I'd love to be completely sponsor-funded, the reality is that open source projects still need to cover real-world costs. For what it's worth, Stalwart has received two NLNet grants [2] [3] to support open protocol work, which hopefully reinforces our commitment to open source. So while the optics of this situation may look rough from the outside, I promise it’s not some “open source in name only” kind of thing. It’s just one of those painful balance acts between building features, maintaining packages, and paying the bills. And hey, if you're heading back to Maddy, no hard feelings. But the door’s always open if you want to give Stalwart another shot down the road. [0]: https://stalw.art/docs/development/compile https://stalw.art/docs/development/compile [1]: https://stalw.art/compare/#faq https://stalw.art/compare/#faq [2]: https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart/ https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart/ [3]: https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart-Collaboration/ https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart-Collaboration/
lakomen 1y ago
[dead]
npodbielski 1y ago
Wow that is great looking project. I am running mailcow currently but single application that can almost do the same is very tempting.
franga2000 1y ago
I applaud the technical achievement, but I fear this is the kind of feature creep that kills projects. There were quite a few open source "groupware" projects that are now close to forgotten because what people really needed was a [email server] that integrated nicely with their existing [files,office,ticketing...], but the "groupware" options were too tightly bundled and hard to integrate. Swap the brackets for any feature and you'll probably find a "suite" that did that thing the best, but ultimately failed because it wasn't the best at everything else too. Nextcloud already has calendar, contacts and especially files covered quite well, but it can't be configured to use external providers for those. Anyone who wants a complete self-hosted solution (everything from federated file shares to web forms, collaborative editing, appointments, tasks...) will definitely want to stick with Nextcloud, so they'll have to turn off all these new features. I just worry that with time, this will become another "all in one" suite that does one or even a few things reeeally well (email), but is too annoying to properly integrate with everything else. Yes, Nextcloud is also in danger of becoming that, but they've done a very good job of moving things into optional extensions and giving you plenty of integration options for plugging in external software. It's very good at being the hub that other things plug into, but you can't have two hubs...

132 points by gpi 1y ago

FlamingMoe 1y ago

Cool! I love anything in the direction of email decentralization.

pluto_modadic 1y ago

glad the focus returns to this instead of ML stuff.

jazzyjackson 1y ago

NLnet out here funding another banger

throw_a_grenade 1y ago

What is the reason to pick Stalwart over Nextcloud? Nextcloud also has calendars, contacts, files, and integrated mail client. And a reasonably sized ecosystem of apps.

dwedge 1y ago
Stalwart is also a mailserver
mxuribe 1y ago
While I am happy for areas of competition - since they lead to choice - I also like it when there are partnerships....Nextcloud either acquired or partners with RoundCube, and separately also partners with collabora for the Office suite offering....so might be great if Nextcloud and Stalwart had some sort of partnership for mutual benefit.
- hex-m 1y ago
  The partnership between Nextcloud and Stalwart was announced 4 months ago: https://nextcloud.com/blog/press_releases/nextcloud-stalwart-partnership/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/press_releases/nextcloud-stalwart...
  - mxuribe 1y ago
    That's awesome, thanks for sharing!

hatzz 1y ago

I’ve always found stalwart interesting but have been a bit sceptical due to the main developer being quite anonymous. It seems that there is a company behind it as well "Stalwart Labs" but I cannot find information about it either, no linkedin and no people. I might just be used to openess as in devs not being anonymous though.

StalwartLabs 1y ago
I understand your perspective, many open source communities are built on transparency, and it's natural to want to know the people behind a project. That said, I personally value privacy highly, which is actually one of the main reasons I started Stalwart Mail Server. I don't maintain a personal presence on LinkedIn or other social media platforms, not because I'm trying to be anonymous, but because I prefer to focus on the work rather than promoting myself. I’ve found that platforms like LinkedIn are more noise than signal for me, especially with constant recruiter spam. That being said, Stalwart Labs as a company is far from hidden. You can find our company page on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/company/stalwartlabs/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/stalwartlabs/. We're also active on: * Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@stalwartlabs https://mastodon.social/@stalwartlabs * Twitter/X: https://x.com/stalwartlabs https://x.com/stalwartlabs * Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/stalwartlabs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/stalwartlabs/ While I may not be putting my personal life on display, I’m committed to transparency where it matters most: through the project’s code, documentation, and community engagement. I hope that helps clarify things!
- hatzz 1y ago
  I feel you as I also value my privacy however i believe there is a difference between anonymity and privacy: a completely unknown entity and a person which personal life is not on the internet. There is a lot of trust involved especially with something as important as an email server which is extremely important for businesses. It's this and the project being maintained by a solo developer (unless it's a pseudonym for multiple people :D) that makes me not want to personally rely on it. I'm not only here to complain though, it's an awesome project and I find it really impressive for someone to build a mailserver (and other features) from scratch. Thank you for investing time in open source implementations of protocols that run the world. Follow up questions: What are the thoughts about enterprise and business support? I see that it exists but I believe there is a lot of trust involved ^^. Will there be more developers, open source, knowing the people behind the project and or support people? Do you have any customers today?

matja 1y ago

This is interesting because Stalwart has a built-in clustering feature and can use distributed databases as its storage layer, so you get high-availability options out of the box. I've struggled with doing similar HA on Dovecot, never quite being true HA (for the open source version of Dovecot) for a while and never found a good other open source option.

mjl- 1y ago

Congrats on the release! Having calendaring (and address book) along with your email makes it easy to run your own self-hosted PIM infrastructure.

StalwartLabs 1y ago
Thanks! :-)

lb_ 1y ago

I really like where Stalwart is going, but I am quite hesitant to use it when basically all commits are authored by a single person. What would happen if he abandons the project or disappears?

miroljub 1y ago
Why not? If it goes away, it would take years until it rots and becomes unusable. And given that it uses open standard, it would be pretty simple to take a backup (which you should be doing regularly anyways) and move somewhere else.

rossy 1y ago

I checked my repo to see which Stalwart version I was running and if I could update, and I was surprised to find that the Arch package has been deleted due to FOSS licensing concerns[1], the most severe of which seems to be that Stalwart can no longer build without proprietary code[2]. Other smaller issues include the fact that the web admin interface isn't included in the source distribution, but is downloaded from GitHub on first run, and _also_ seems to contain proprietary code[3]. These issues, which would be showstoppers for a real free software project, and pretty easy to fix if you were the rightsholder of the code, were promised to be fixed "in a few weeks" in September last year, and "in a few months" in January this year, however they're still not fixed, which means I can't upgrade - not that I probably want to anymore. I truly believe in free software, so I find the idea of using "open source" as an empty marketing bullet-point for at least eight months to be fairly distasteful. Might be time to switch to Maddy. [1]: https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/stalwart-mail-server/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/st... [2]: https://github.com/stalwartlabs/stalwart/issues/783 https://github.com/stalwartlabs/stalwart/issues/783 [3]: https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/stalwart-mail-server/-/issues/1#note_211407 https://gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinux/packaging/packages/st...

StalwartLabs 1y ago
I want to clarify that Stalwart can absolutely be compiled without any proprietary code. All you need to do is omit the Enterprise feature flag during compilation [0], and what you get is a 100% AGPL-3.0 build. The Arch package removal wasn’t because the software suddenly became non-free, but rather due to a packaging requirement: Arch needs a clean separation of the Enterprise code from the source tree, and that’s something we haven’t done yet (it will be implemented as a script). The delay isn’t due to any unwillingness to comply, it’s simply been a matter of prioritization. Over the past few months, the focus was on delivering major features like WebDAV support. That said, I'm still fully committed to resolving the packaging issue because we want Stalwart back in Arch as much as you do. It’s also worth noting that only about 5% of the codebase is Enterprise, and that small slice helps fund ongoing development and expansion of the team [1]. As much as I'd love to be completely sponsor-funded, the reality is that open source projects still need to cover real-world costs. For what it's worth, Stalwart has received two NLNet grants [2] [3] to support open protocol work, which hopefully reinforces our commitment to open source. So while the optics of this situation may look rough from the outside, I promise it’s not some “open source in name only” kind of thing. It’s just one of those painful balance acts between building features, maintaining packages, and paying the bills. And hey, if you're heading back to Maddy, no hard feelings. But the door’s always open if you want to give Stalwart another shot down the road. [0]: https://stalw.art/docs/development/compile https://stalw.art/docs/development/compile [1]: https://stalw.art/compare/#faq https://stalw.art/compare/#faq [2]: https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart/ https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart/ [3]: https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart-Collaboration/ https://nlnet.nl/project/Stalwart-Collaboration/

lakomen 1y ago

[dead]

npodbielski 1y ago

Wow that is great looking project. I am running mailcow currently but single application that can almost do the same is very tempting.

franga2000 1y ago

I applaud the technical achievement, but I fear this is the kind of feature creep that kills projects. There were quite a few open source "groupware" projects that are now close to forgotten because what people really needed was a [email server] that integrated nicely with their existing [files,office,ticketing...], but the "groupware" options were too tightly bundled and hard to integrate. Swap the brackets for any feature and you'll probably find a "suite" that did that thing the best, but ultimately failed because it wasn't the best at everything else too. Nextcloud already has calendar, contacts and especially files covered quite well, but it can't be configured to use external providers for those. Anyone who wants a complete self-hosted solution (everything from federated file shares to web forms, collaborative editing, appointments, tasks...) will definitely want to stick with Nextcloud, so they'll have to turn off all these new features. I just worry that with time, this will become another "all in one" suite that does one or even a few things reeeally well (email), but is too annoying to properly integrate with everything else. Yes, Nextcloud is also in danger of becoming that, but they've done a very good job of moving things into optional extensions and giving you plenty of integration options for plugging in external software. It's very good at being the hub that other things plug into, but you can't have two hubs...