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In Australia Universities that have remote study have places where people can do proctored exams in large cities. The course is done remotely but the exam, whic
by sien 1y ago
In Australia Universities that have remote study have places where people can do proctored exams in large cities. The course is done remotely but the exam, which is often 50%+ of the final grade, is done in a place that has proctored exams as a service.
Can't this be done in the US as well ?
- fn-mote 1y agoVariations in this system are in active use in the US as well. Do you feel it is effective? It seems to me that there is a massive asymmetry in the war here: proctoring services have tiny incentives to catch cheaters. Cheaters have massive incentives to cheat. I expect the system will only catch a small fraction of the cheating that occurs.
- baby_souffle 1y ago> I expect the system will only catch a small fraction of the cheating that occurs. It'll depend a lot on who/where/how is doing the screening and what tools (if any) are permitted. Remember that bogus program for TI8{3,4} series calculators that would clear the screen and print "MEMORY CLEAR"? If the proctor was just looking for that string and not actually jumping through the hoops to _actually_ clear the memory then it was trivial to keep notes / solvers ... etc on the calculator.
- MrDarcy 1y agoWas I at university in a small window in time when a TI-89 and TI-92 was allowed? In the years since, I’ve only ever heard mention of older models, not newer ones which makes me wonder if this is a special case and situation where technology is frozen in time intentionally to foster learning.
- jmb99 1y agoI wasn’t allowed anything more complex than a Casio FX-300ES. Even my 991ES wasn’t allowed, let alone something like a TI83/4. This (from what I’ve heard) is pretty standard in Canadian universities for calc 1-3, linear algebra, discrete, etc.
- neepi 1y agoSupposed to be the same thing in the UK but no one cares. In fact most of our students (undergrad mathematics) appear to have HP Prime now which has a full CAS built in. The questions are designed to break the CAS sometimes. Try expanding (a-2b)^1000 on a calculator to get a coefficient out. It gets stuck and hoses the whole calculator.
- vintermann 1y agoI was in such a window. TI-89 was allowed by mistake, we were allowed to keep using it since it was expensive. Next year they were back on TI-83s. Oh yes, they're frozen in time, but since the people who pay for them are not the same people who demand they must be used, they're not frozen in price. It's the most expensive kilobytes you'll ever buy.
- stonemetal12 1y agoThey are not "older models" just lower end. TI-92 came out in 1995 and discontinued in in 1998. TI-83 was introduced in 1996 and discontinued in 2004. TI-89 came out in 1998 and was discontinued in 2004. At my high school we were allowed to have TI-83s but not TI-89s, because 89s had built in CAS (computer algebra system) and could do your algebra homework for you. When I went to college I already had an 83 so I didn't feel the need to upgrade.
- cjbgkagh 1y agoOr just have two calculators and swap them
- Dwedit 1y agoIt's actually somewhat of a challenge to display "Mem cleared" without access to the lowercase font. You have access to any uppercase character, spaces, and BASIC functions. With stat vars, you also get lowercase "a" "b" "c" "d" "e" and "r". And you can display text at a specific row and column. I ended up displaying "M" "e" "min(" "c" "log(" "e" "a" "r" "e" "d". Then covered up the "in(" with spaces. Then you lower your contrast for the full effect.
- barry-cotter 1y ago> proctoring services have tiny incentives to catch cheaters. Cheaters have massive incentives to cheat. If they don’t catch them they don’t have a business model. They have one job. The University of London, Open University and British Council all have 50+ years experience on proctoring university exams for distance learning students and it’s not like Thomson Prometric haven’t thought about how to do it either, even if they (mostly?) do computerised exams.
- ghaff 1y agoAnd I daresay most of the corporate certs from companies like Microsoft and Red Hat are probably have pretty well-proctored exams too. To what degree their processes are applicable to a University environment I don't know.
- masfuerte 1y agoI took one last year. Microsoft offer a choice of remote proctoring or in-person at a Pearson VUE test centre. I chose the latter. You put your stuff in a locker. They compare your face to some official photo ID and take your photo. You sit the test. They print out your results along with your mugshot. That's it. It was very painless.
- foolswisdom 1y agoThe problem is that the business model is that when you outsource compliance (in this case that might be catching cheaters), the important thing is to be able to say that everyone did their best, and you don't necessarily need to do your best to say that.
- Aerroon 1y agoTeachers typically also have years, sometimes decades, of experience running exams. Yet I've never seen a teacher that is any good at stopping cheating. And that's in person for the class that they are teaching.
- palmotea 1y ago
- sien 1y agoFrom what I've seen it works. There is definitely a war between cheaters and people catching them. But a lot of people can't be bothered and if learning the material can be made easier than cheating then it will work. You can imagine proctoring halls of the future being Faraday cages with a camera watching people do their test.
- exhilaration 1y agoLocal LLMs are almost here, no Internet needed!
- mystraline 1y agoAlmost? I've been running a programming LLM locally, with a 200k context length with using system ram. Its also an abliterated model, so I get none of the moralizing or forced ethics either. I ask, and it answers. I even have it hooked up to my HomeAssistant, and can trigger complex actions from there.
- robotnikman 1y agoWhat model are you using and what kind of hardware are you running it on?
- dgfitz 1y agoWay back like 25 years ago in what we call high school in the US, my statistics teacher tried her damndest to make final exams fair. I said next to someone I had a huge crush on, and offered to take their exam for them. I needed a ‘c’ to ace the class, and she needed an ‘a’ to pass. 3 different tests and sets of questions/scantrons. I got her the grade she needed, she did not get me the grade I needed. So to your point, it’s easy to cheat even if the proctor tries to prevent it.
- AStonesThrow 1y agoI am confused by your pronouns and other plot holes. You wanted to "ace the class", which is an "A" on your final report card? But your crush's exam tanked your grade? You passed the class anyway, right? Did you swap Scantrons, then, and your crush sat next to you, writing answers on the dgfitz forms? She wouldn't pass without an "A" on the exams, so her running point total was circling the drain, and your effort gave her a "C-" or something? In what ways did your teacher make the exams "fair"? What percentage of the grade did they comprise? Were the 3 tests administered on 3 separate occasions, so nobody caught you repeatedly cheating the same way?
- vkou 1y ago> Were the 3 tests administered on 3 separate occasions, so nobody caught you repeatedly cheating the same way? I imagine that it would be utterly trivial for two people to nearly-undetectably cheat in this way, by both of them simply writing the other person's name on their exam.
- CoastalCoder 1y agoMy impression was that in high school, girls and boys had pretty distinct handwriting. Not sure if that impression is accurate though, or if it's true of mathematical writing.
- jsnider3 1y agoYes, high school boys and girls have clearly distinct handwriting. If you're just filling in bubbles on a scantron, then handwriting isn't very visible and each person can just write their own name on the scantron they're submitting as their own.
- directevolve 1y ago> I expect the system will only catch a small fraction of the cheating that occurs. The main kind of cheating we need them to prevent is effective cheating - the kind that can meaningfully improve the cheater's score. Requiring cheaters to put their belongings in a locker, using proctor-provided resources, and being monitored in a proctor-provided room puts substantial limits on effective cheating. That's pretty much the minimum that any proctor does. It may not stop 100% of effective cheating 100% of the time, but it would make a tremendous impact in eliminating LLM-based cheating. If you're worried about corrupt proctors, that's another matter. National brands that are both self- and externally-policed and depend on a good reputation to drive business from universities would help. With this system, I expect that it would not take much to avoid almost all the important cheating that now occurs.
- rtkwe 1y agoRemote proctoring programs at least are pretty rough these days. Their environment conditions are pretty exacting and then they expect you to just stare at the screen and think for basically the whole exam. Minor normal webcam problems can invalidate the entire exam through no fault of the examee or if you look around or fidget a lot it can trigger their cheat detection as well. I'm glad I finished my test taking time before it became the norm.
- dataflow 1y agoWhat do they do if you don't have a webcam? Or if your webcam is broken? Or if you don't feel comfortable sharing your video?
- wisty 1y agoYou can't stop people hiring someone who looks similar from sitting the exam, or messages in morse code via Bluetooth. It's hard to stop a palm card. But it stops a casual cheater from having ChatGTP on a second device.
- grogenaut 1y agoYou can. I did a remote proctored exam for the NREMT last year. They had me walk the camera around the room, under the desk, etc. All devices had to be in my backpack. No earbuds. They made me unplug the conference tv on the wall, lift picture frames etc. I had to keep my hands above the table the whole time, I couldn't look down if I was scratching an itch. They installed rootkit software and closed down all of the apps other than the browser running the test. They killed a daemon I run on my own pcs that is custom. They are recording from the webcam the whole time and have it angled so they can see. They record audio the whole time. I accidentally alt tabbed once and muted the mic with a wrong keyboard, those were first and second warning within 5 seconds. When you take the test in a proctored testing center location they lock all of your stuff in a locker, check your hands, pockets, etc. They give you earplugs. You use their computer. They record you the whole time. They check your drivers license and take a fingerprint. Those methods would stop a large % of your attack vectors. As do the repercussions: A candidate who violates National Registry policies, or the test center's regulations or rules, or engages in irregular behavior, misconduct and/or does not follow the test administrator's warning to discontinue inappropriate behavior may be dismissed from the test center. Exam fees for candidates dismissed from a test center will not be refunded. Additionally, your exam results may be withheld or canceled. The National Registry of EMTs may take other disciplinary action such as denial of National EMS Certification and/or disqualification from future National Registry exams. At a minimum you're paying the $150 fee again, waiting another month to get scheduled and taking another 3 hours out of your day.
- AStonesThrow 1y agoI took 3 CompTIA certification tests at a community college testing center. This was the procedure, more or less. > When you take the test in a proctored testing center location they lock all of your stuff in a locker, check your hands, pockets, etc. They give you earplugs. You use their computer. They record you the whole time. They check your drivers license and take a fingerprint. While attending there, I also took a virtual Calculus class. The instructor was based in the satellite campus, several miles away. The virtual class required a TI graphing calculator, used Pearson textbook & video lectures, and all the tests and quizzes were in Canvas. I worked from home or the main campus, where there was a tutoring center, full of students and tutors making the rounds to explain everything. I received tutoring every other week. But then our instructor posted the details on our final exams. We were expected to arrive in-person, for the first time of the semester, on that satellite campus at specified times. I protested, because everything I'd ever done was on the main campus, and I rode public transit, and the distance and unfamiliarity would be a hardship. So the disability services center accommodated me. They shut me into in a dimly lit one-person room with a desk, paper, and pencil, and I believe there was a camera, and no calculator required. The instructor had granted an extended period to complete the exam, and I finished at the last possible moment. I was so thankful to be done and have good results, because I had really struggled to understand Calculus.
- redcobra762 1y agoIf you've been to one of these testing centers, you'd realize it's not easy to cheat, and the companies that run them take cheating seriously. The audacity of someone to cheat in that environment would be exceptionally high, and just from security theater alone I suspect almost no actual cheating takes place.
- aerhardt 1y agoI did a proctored exam for Harvard Extension at the British Council in Madrid. The staff is proctoring exams year-round for their in-house stuff so their motivation notwithstanding they know what they’re doing.
- math_dandy 1y agoProctoring services done well could be valuable, but it’s smaller rural and remote communities that would benefit most. Maybe these services could be offered by local schools, libraries, etc.
- bigfatkitten 1y agoNot even just large cities. Decent sized towns have them too, usually with local high school teachers or the like acting as proctors.
- globalnode 1y agoWhere I'm studying its proctored-online. They have a custom browser and take over your computer while you're doing the exam. Creepy AF but saves travelling 1,300 km to sit an exam.
- dehrmann 1y agoWouldn't spending $300 on a laptop to cheat on an exam for a class you're paying thousands for make sense? It would probably improve your grade more than the text book.
- seb1204 1y agoYou have to install an app that is a Bowser that at the same time locks the entire computer. Only this browser works. Install it, give it the needed admin permission and participate in your test or don't. This is also used in Australian schools for NAPLAN https://www.nap.edu.au/naplan/understanding-online-assessment/technical-requirements https://www.nap.edu.au/naplan/understanding-online-assessmen...
- baq 1y agonope. too much impact on profit.
- throwaway2037 1y agoCan you tell us: Is "remote study" a relatively recent phenom in AU -- COVID era, or much older? I am curious to learn more. And, what is the history behind it? Was it created/supported because AU is so vast and many people a state might not live near the campus? Also: I think your suggestion is excellent. We may see this happen in the US if AI cheating gets out of control (which it well).
- stevage 1y agoIt definitely existed before, particularly as a revenue stream for some of the smaller universities such as USQ. I think for the big ones it was a bit beneath them, then suddenly COVID came and we had lockdown for a long time in Melbourne. Now it's an expectation that students can access everything from home, but the flipside is everyone complains about how much campus life has declined. Students are paying more for a lower quality education and less amenity.
- dirkc 1y agoThe same thing exists in South Africa, the university is called UNISA [1]. It has existed for a long time - my parents time. Lots of people that can't afford to go to university (as in, needs to earn an income) studies with them. [1] - https://www.unisa.ac.za/sites/corporate/default https://www.unisa.ac.za/sites/corporate/default
- wrp 1y agoThe Open University in the UK started in 1969. Their staff have a reputation for good interaction with students, and I have seen very high quality teaching materials produced there. I believe they have always operated on the basis of remote teaching but on-site evaluation. The Open University sounds like an all-round success story and I'm surprised it isn't mentioned more in discussions of remote education.