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I disagree with this in principle. Gamification is something we should be very wary of because it is inherently bad. It reduces what you care about in an activi

I disagree with this in principle. Gamification is something we should be very wary of because it is inherently bad. It reduces what you care about in an activity to points and a progress bar. Instead of sticking with language learning because you have some intrinsic reason to want to learn it (or even a external one such as wanting a new job) you're substituting that with whatever Duolingo puts for their gamification. To the degree you engage with and are motivated by the gamification you are substituting your own metrics of success and progress for points and streaks. And soon enough we end up here, where Duolingo has gamified their internal numbers and in doing so gamified your "learning".

lukan 1y ago
Why do people prefer games over hard work while learning? Because this is how we used to naturally learn. Kids having fun playing hide and seek? Wrestling and throwing stones? They are learning hunting/survival skills. Today with more abstract knowledge needed it is harder, but the concept of making abstract learning a game again, is a very smart one in general. It of course fails, if engagement becomes the metric and not gaining knowledge.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  But in your analogy, the base Duolingo app without its gamification is the gamification of learning a language. The streaks and points and everything else is a gamification of gamification of learning.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    That doesn't make any sense. Gamifying gamification sounds like giving your eng teams streaks for CLs that improve gamification, not just... gamifying more.
verisimilidude 1y ago
If the gamification is fully disclosed, I don't see the problem. People should be able to agree to game themselves, if it helps them complete a task they otherwise wouldn't finish. But consent is key. Maybe we need regulation that compels companies to disclose these manipulative techniques in digital services. Give people the chance to opt in or out.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  People should be allowed to game themselves. But this isn't language learners setting up little games for themselves to learn more. This is 1 version of gamification pushed on all of it's users, whether or not it would work for them (or at all).
toss1 1y ago
Seems we need to define what is meant by "gamification" in this context. If we're just talking about tracking and making visible streaks, vocab words learned, tenses mastered, etc. that seems fine; little different than in fitness training where one tracks workouts, miles run, pace improved, weights lifted, etc.. Adding in a few goals and milestones met can be helpful OTOH, if we're talking about skewing the content to maximize psychological manipulation at the cost of actual learning, that is toxic gamification, and certainly against the user's goals. Haven't used DuoLingo, so I'm not sure which one we have here?
fnordpiglet 1y ago
I have to say I think this is a to each their own type of thing. If the goal is to learn a language there’s no extra credit for your motivations or drive. There’s no uber mensch superiority between a person who leveraged gamification to practice or someone who steeled themselves with a few pages of Nietzsche before settling into a determined five hour rote study session. I personally find the gamification of Duolingo over the top but I can’t argue it works with people it works with. My 11yo loves it and is top of their class in Spanish from bottom as a result. They’ve taught themselves a decent amount of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean along the way. I know they couldn’t have done it through sheer willpower and authenticity no matter what Kant would think of them - they’re 11 for gods sake. What parent wouldn’t be thrilled their child is becoming fluent in a language and picking up two others? Does it bother me they care about being in diamond league or not? Not in the least. If they were up selling or cross selling maybe. And I use this as a chance to talk about how insidious gamification could be if it were - or if it were in service of sucking their attention for profit ala social media and advertising. That said, again: I get it this turns off many people. I suspect they’re totally aware of that. But for many people I’m 100% certain it helps keep their engagement over time in the skill they’re hoping to learn even if it somehow makes their success impure in the eyes of others. But for learning a language the success is in the language skill, not the process by which you acquired it.
- RugnirViking 1y ago
  I think it's more that the process of actually learning a language is much more time consuming than people expect. There's a sort of idea if you haven't done it before that you learn all the grammar rules, learn translations of each word, and then you're good. But once you get into it you realise that doing this literally is both a massive task and also Sisyphean. Learning it like an algorithm you run through in your mind is way too slow. You have to just listen and interact with it enough that some other strange alien part of your mind can remember and understand it implicitly. It's a weird process to experience, when things "sound right" without knowing why etc. Duolingo with it's single sentences, and especially how it tries to have 1-1 translations for everything is good, but not sufficient. It's best used as just a part of study, something to get vocab and a sense of basic grammar rules. Why is it bad? Because their approach hits a plateau. The gamification at that point goes from good to bad. It's why people switch languages and learn like four at a time in Duolingo (bad for the alien brain bits that are trying to develop the one language) rather than stick with the one (because beyond a point it's more of the same level rather than moving up at a good pace) It also kinda takes you away from going outside Duolingo and seeking out other things because if the gamification works you're doing that plus Duolingo rather than doing what's actually appropriate for your level

lukan 1y ago

Why do people prefer games over hard work while learning? Because this is how we used to naturally learn. Kids having fun playing hide and seek? Wrestling and throwing stones? They are learning hunting/survival skills. Today with more abstract knowledge needed it is harder, but the concept of making abstract learning a game again, is a very smart one in general. It of course fails, if engagement becomes the metric and not gaining knowledge.

_aavaa_ 1y ago
But in your analogy, the base Duolingo app without its gamification is the gamification of learning a language. The streaks and points and everything else is a gamification of gamification of learning.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. Gamifying gamification sounds like giving your eng teams streaks for CLs that improve gamification, not just... gamifying more.

verisimilidude 1y ago

If the gamification is fully disclosed, I don't see the problem. People should be able to agree to game themselves, if it helps them complete a task they otherwise wouldn't finish. But consent is key. Maybe we need regulation that compels companies to disclose these manipulative techniques in digital services. Give people the chance to opt in or out.

_aavaa_ 1y ago
People should be allowed to game themselves. But this isn't language learners setting up little games for themselves to learn more. This is 1 version of gamification pushed on all of it's users, whether or not it would work for them (or at all).

toss1 1y ago

Seems we need to define what is meant by "gamification" in this context. If we're just talking about tracking and making visible streaks, vocab words learned, tenses mastered, etc. that seems fine; little different than in fitness training where one tracks workouts, miles run, pace improved, weights lifted, etc.. Adding in a few goals and milestones met can be helpful OTOH, if we're talking about skewing the content to maximize psychological manipulation at the cost of actual learning, that is toxic gamification, and certainly against the user's goals. Haven't used DuoLingo, so I'm not sure which one we have here?

fnordpiglet 1y ago

I have to say I think this is a to each their own type of thing. If the goal is to learn a language there’s no extra credit for your motivations or drive. There’s no uber mensch superiority between a person who leveraged gamification to practice or someone who steeled themselves with a few pages of Nietzsche before settling into a determined five hour rote study session. I personally find the gamification of Duolingo over the top but I can’t argue it works with people it works with. My 11yo loves it and is top of their class in Spanish from bottom as a result. They’ve taught themselves a decent amount of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean along the way. I know they couldn’t have done it through sheer willpower and authenticity no matter what Kant would think of them - they’re 11 for gods sake. What parent wouldn’t be thrilled their child is becoming fluent in a language and picking up two others? Does it bother me they care about being in diamond league or not? Not in the least. If they were up selling or cross selling maybe. And I use this as a chance to talk about how insidious gamification could be if it were - or if it were in service of sucking their attention for profit ala social media and advertising. That said, again: I get it this turns off many people. I suspect they’re totally aware of that. But for many people I’m 100% certain it helps keep their engagement over time in the skill they’re hoping to learn even if it somehow makes their success impure in the eyes of others. But for learning a language the success is in the language skill, not the process by which you acquired it.

RugnirViking 1y ago
I think it's more that the process of actually learning a language is much more time consuming than people expect. There's a sort of idea if you haven't done it before that you learn all the grammar rules, learn translations of each word, and then you're good. But once you get into it you realise that doing this literally is both a massive task and also Sisyphean. Learning it like an algorithm you run through in your mind is way too slow. You have to just listen and interact with it enough that some other strange alien part of your mind can remember and understand it implicitly. It's a weird process to experience, when things "sound right" without knowing why etc. Duolingo with it's single sentences, and especially how it tries to have 1-1 translations for everything is good, but not sufficient. It's best used as just a part of study, something to get vocab and a sense of basic grammar rules. Why is it bad? Because their approach hits a plateau. The gamification at that point goes from good to bad. It's why people switch languages and learn like four at a time in Duolingo (bad for the alien brain bits that are trying to develop the one language) rather than stick with the one (because beyond a point it's more of the same level rather than moving up at a good pace) It also kinda takes you away from going outside Duolingo and seeking out other things because if the gamification works you're doing that plus Duolingo rather than doing what's actually appropriate for your level