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Learning a new language to any degree of proficiency requires motivation. It's easy to start and hard to continue if you're not willing to put in the effort. T

Learning a new language to any degree of proficiency requires motivation. It's easy to start and hard to continue if you're not willing to put in the effort. There's a valid argument to be made that gamification helps to provide that motivation, but the argument doesn't hold up if the users aren't actually becoming proficient by using the app. In other words, gamification isn't inherently bad, but their motivations don't appear to be good.

lolinder 1y ago
Agreed. Duolingo started out on the right foot: they had gamification, but not too much of it, and they clearly cared about helping you learn. For a long time it was the most highly recommended app for learning new languages and that wasn't just naivete, it actually did work. That's changed gradually over the last few years as they switched from using gamification in pursuit of learning to using a veneer of learning as a pitch to get people to try their game.
Treegarden 1y ago
internal motivation means that someones acts without external stimuli, their drive comes from within, its internal. External motivation means that an external stimuli is used to make someone act. I.e. a monetary reward, or validation etc. When someone is internally motivated, they can have a stable state. When external motivation is introduced, it can replace the internal motivation and will. Now what happens when you then lose the external motivation, the external stimuli again? The internal motivation is gone and this means all motivation is gone, the act stops. On top of this, some people say motivation is cheap, discipline is what matters.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  In the case of language learning, the external motivation provided by gamification is supplanted by the external motivation of having access to conversations, music, movies and literature that you previously didn't have access to, or required third party interpretation to appreciate. Being able to converse directly is a massive boon in the right situations, such as when travelling where you need to know the language to get around, or when your coworkers natively speak that language but not your own. Discipline is well and good, and if you're willing to put in the effort to become better disciplined to push through difficult things, I agree that you're probably better off. I do not agree that someone who already has that level of discipline would be hurt by a gamified system, though. The rewards of gamification on their own are fairly minimal, as they merely provide a (possibly false) sense of progress independent of their own assessment of how they are doing.
- drewcoo 1y ago
  Replacing intrinsic motivation with extrinsic rewards cheapens the activity and makes it less enjoyable. Awarding me badges for brushing my teeth and taking out the trash is a great way to help me do boring tasks. Awarding me badges for having deep, meaningful conversations with my partner . . . not so helpful. Alfie Kohn has collected decades of studies and written about that in his book Punished by Rewards. It's one of the books I try to give away to friends and coworkers who are interested in the subject. The pro-gamification folks seem to want to pretend that they're doing something totally different this time and they can ignore all the previous data. https://www.alfiekohn.org/topics/motivation-inside/ https://www.alfiekohn.org/topics/motivation-inside/
FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago
It requires habit more than motivation. I was bored during covid and started Japanese and four years later im still keeping it going. I lost my motivation multiple times during those years (because good god what an ridiculous language coming from a European one), but my habit kept me going until i found my motivation again.
- jamager 1y ago
  Exactly. For projects taking multiple years, eventually motivation will run dry. Good habits is what compels you to do the thing when you don't feel like doing the thing.
_aavaa_ 1y ago
I disagree with this in principle. Gamification is something we should be very wary of because it is inherently bad. It reduces what you care about in an activity to points and a progress bar. Instead of sticking with language learning because you have some intrinsic reason to want to learn it (or even a external one such as wanting a new job) you're substituting that with whatever Duolingo puts for their gamification. To the degree you engage with and are motivated by the gamification you are substituting your own metrics of success and progress for points and streaks. And soon enough we end up here, where Duolingo has gamified their internal numbers and in doing so gamified your "learning".
- lukan 1y ago
  Why do people prefer games over hard work while learning? Because this is how we used to naturally learn. Kids having fun playing hide and seek? Wrestling and throwing stones? They are learning hunting/survival skills. Today with more abstract knowledge needed it is harder, but the concept of making abstract learning a game again, is a very smart one in general. It of course fails, if engagement becomes the metric and not gaining knowledge.
  - _aavaa_ 1y ago
    But in your analogy, the base Duolingo app without its gamification is the gamification of learning a language. The streaks and points and everything else is a gamification of gamification of learning.
    - SR2Z 1y ago
      That doesn't make any sense. Gamifying gamification sounds like giving your eng teams streaks for CLs that improve gamification, not just... gamifying more.
- verisimilidude 1y ago
  If the gamification is fully disclosed, I don't see the problem. People should be able to agree to game themselves, if it helps them complete a task they otherwise wouldn't finish. But consent is key. Maybe we need regulation that compels companies to disclose these manipulative techniques in digital services. Give people the chance to opt in or out.
rzz3 1y ago
So I agree they go over the top with it, _but_ I reached fluency in Spanish in about 2.5 years and Duolingo was an indispensable part of it. > if the users aren't actually becoming proficient by using the app Learning a language to fluency requires real commitment, and I’d say an app could never possibly do it on its own. One of the most key things Duolingo gave me was consistency and a lack of an excuse to constantly practice and learn. But you also have to (and I did) use the language daily, watch content in the target language, travel and speak with locals in the language, etc. I’m not sure where Duolingo ever claimed that it alone was enough to actually reach proficiency or fluency. Duolingo’s gamification and streaks and leaderboards gave me a reason to put a lot of effort into learning the language, and I don’t know where I’d be without it. There’s a lot of things about Duolingo I don’t love but I’m incredibly grateful that it exists.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  Yeah but the thing is people would stop use that if they already proficient on such language so duolingo give you a little incentive to make you as fast as possible to master language
karaterobot 1y ago
I sort of wonder whether they realized gamification works for certain kinds of tasks, but not for others, and then decided to design their language learning app for gamification, rather than designing a gamification system to support language learning. In other words, I don't think Duolingo's system can really make you fluent in a language, but what it seems to excel in is making you use Duolingo every day. In other other words, you always hear people talking about how long their streak is ("500 days!") rather than how well they speak the language.

lolinder 1y ago

Agreed. Duolingo started out on the right foot: they had gamification, but not too much of it, and they clearly cared about helping you learn. For a long time it was the most highly recommended app for learning new languages and that wasn't just naivete, it actually did work. That's changed gradually over the last few years as they switched from using gamification in pursuit of learning to using a veneer of learning as a pitch to get people to try their game.

Treegarden 1y ago

internal motivation means that someones acts without external stimuli, their drive comes from within, its internal. External motivation means that an external stimuli is used to make someone act. I.e. a monetary reward, or validation etc. When someone is internally motivated, they can have a stable state. When external motivation is introduced, it can replace the internal motivation and will. Now what happens when you then lose the external motivation, the external stimuli again? The internal motivation is gone and this means all motivation is gone, the act stops. On top of this, some people say motivation is cheap, discipline is what matters.

zdragnar 1y ago
In the case of language learning, the external motivation provided by gamification is supplanted by the external motivation of having access to conversations, music, movies and literature that you previously didn't have access to, or required third party interpretation to appreciate. Being able to converse directly is a massive boon in the right situations, such as when travelling where you need to know the language to get around, or when your coworkers natively speak that language but not your own. Discipline is well and good, and if you're willing to put in the effort to become better disciplined to push through difficult things, I agree that you're probably better off. I do not agree that someone who already has that level of discipline would be hurt by a gamified system, though. The rewards of gamification on their own are fairly minimal, as they merely provide a (possibly false) sense of progress independent of their own assessment of how they are doing.
drewcoo 1y ago
Replacing intrinsic motivation with extrinsic rewards cheapens the activity and makes it less enjoyable. Awarding me badges for brushing my teeth and taking out the trash is a great way to help me do boring tasks. Awarding me badges for having deep, meaningful conversations with my partner . . . not so helpful. Alfie Kohn has collected decades of studies and written about that in his book Punished by Rewards. It's one of the books I try to give away to friends and coworkers who are interested in the subject. The pro-gamification folks seem to want to pretend that they're doing something totally different this time and they can ignore all the previous data. https://www.alfiekohn.org/topics/motivation-inside/ https://www.alfiekohn.org/topics/motivation-inside/

FranzFerdiNaN 1y ago

It requires habit more than motivation. I was bored during covid and started Japanese and four years later im still keeping it going. I lost my motivation multiple times during those years (because good god what an ridiculous language coming from a European one), but my habit kept me going until i found my motivation again.

jamager 1y ago
Exactly. For projects taking multiple years, eventually motivation will run dry. Good habits is what compels you to do the thing when you don't feel like doing the thing.

_aavaa_ 1y ago

I disagree with this in principle. Gamification is something we should be very wary of because it is inherently bad. It reduces what you care about in an activity to points and a progress bar. Instead of sticking with language learning because you have some intrinsic reason to want to learn it (or even a external one such as wanting a new job) you're substituting that with whatever Duolingo puts for their gamification. To the degree you engage with and are motivated by the gamification you are substituting your own metrics of success and progress for points and streaks. And soon enough we end up here, where Duolingo has gamified their internal numbers and in doing so gamified your "learning".

lukan 1y ago
Why do people prefer games over hard work while learning? Because this is how we used to naturally learn. Kids having fun playing hide and seek? Wrestling and throwing stones? They are learning hunting/survival skills. Today with more abstract knowledge needed it is harder, but the concept of making abstract learning a game again, is a very smart one in general. It of course fails, if engagement becomes the metric and not gaining knowledge.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  But in your analogy, the base Duolingo app without its gamification is the gamification of learning a language. The streaks and points and everything else is a gamification of gamification of learning.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    That doesn't make any sense. Gamifying gamification sounds like giving your eng teams streaks for CLs that improve gamification, not just... gamifying more.
verisimilidude 1y ago
If the gamification is fully disclosed, I don't see the problem. People should be able to agree to game themselves, if it helps them complete a task they otherwise wouldn't finish. But consent is key. Maybe we need regulation that compels companies to disclose these manipulative techniques in digital services. Give people the chance to opt in or out.

rzz3 1y ago

So I agree they go over the top with it, _but_ I reached fluency in Spanish in about 2.5 years and Duolingo was an indispensable part of it. > if the users aren't actually becoming proficient by using the app Learning a language to fluency requires real commitment, and I’d say an app could never possibly do it on its own. One of the most key things Duolingo gave me was consistency and a lack of an excuse to constantly practice and learn. But you also have to (and I did) use the language daily, watch content in the target language, travel and speak with locals in the language, etc. I’m not sure where Duolingo ever claimed that it alone was enough to actually reach proficiency or fluency. Duolingo’s gamification and streaks and leaderboards gave me a reason to put a lot of effort into learning the language, and I don’t know where I’d be without it. There’s a lot of things about Duolingo I don’t love but I’m incredibly grateful that it exists.

tonyhart7 1y ago
Yeah but the thing is people would stop use that if they already proficient on such language so duolingo give you a little incentive to make you as fast as possible to master language

karaterobot 1y ago

I sort of wonder whether they realized gamification works for certain kinds of tasks, but not for others, and then decided to design their language learning app for gamification, rather than designing a gamification system to support language learning. In other words, I don't think Duolingo's system can really make you fluent in a language, but what it seems to excel in is making you use Duolingo every day. In other other words, you always hear people talking about how long their streak is ("500 days!") rather than how well they speak the language.