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Love JWTs but I wish there was a better standard for conveying detailed and compact authorization information, for systems requiring enforcement of complex auth

Love JWTs but I wish there was a better standard for conveying detailed and compact authorization information, for systems requiring enforcement of complex authorization rules. We experimented once with trying to put permissions on a JWT (more complex than your popular scopes) but that makes them grow quickly. And we experimented with putting role information on JWTs but that results in re-centralization of logic. Maybe conveying complex authorization info via a single object that gets passed around repeatedly is fundamentally a flawed idea, but if I had an identity standards wishlist that would be near the top.

Bilal_io 1y ago
Oh yeah the token grows in length very quickly, we also tried using it 5 years ago to pass in roles to the client and ended up with many issues
cyberax 1y ago
Authorization is really not a generally solvable problem. Every large system ends up having its quirks. Attempting to generalize it ends up in pain, suffering, and AWS IAM.
- khana 1y ago
  [dead]
JimDabell 1y ago
You might want to check out Biscuit: > Biscuit is an authorization token with decentralized verification, offline attenuation and strong security policy enforcement based on a logic language — https://www.biscuitsec.org https://www.biscuitsec.org
kgeist 1y ago
>We experimented once with trying to put permissions on a JWT (more complex than your popular scopes) but that makes them grow quickly. We solved it by simply using bitmasks. Say, you want to encode an access rule "allows reading from Calendar objects". The typical CRUD actions can be encoded with 4 bits. For example, all bits are zero => no access. The first bit is 1 => can create. The second bit is 1 => can read. Etc. Then, say, if your system has 32 different types of objects, you can say that, "position 13 encodes for calendars". So you get 32*4 = 128 bits, i.e. just 16 bytes to encode information about CRUD rules for 32 different types of objects. Sure it sounds complicated but if you move it to a library, you stop thinking about it.
- hirsin 1y ago
  That works as long as you have no distinctions between objects of a type. _Which_ calendar can they edit? All of them? Putting all the repos you can access into a token is a request we get sometimes. It would be... Difficult.
  - kgeist 1y ago
    I agree it doesn't work for all cases. In our case, some services can have complex, service-specific access control logic that's hard to express declaratively in a token, so we also have to make some checks by consulting the DB. I don't think that's usually a problem (performance-wise) because we already need to contact the DB anyway - to retrieve the entity to work with (and that has, say, an OwnerID property). The access token helps reduce DB load by skipping general checks ("can the user access calendars in principle?"), and for users who can, we then consult the DB additionally, if the service requires it ("is the user actually the owner of this calendar?" or any other additional access logic). The general case "can the user access calendars in principle?" also allows to hide menu items / return 403 in the UI immediately with zero DB or cache cost.
mparnisari 1y ago
Check out https://zanzibar.tech/ https://zanzibar.tech/

Bilal_io 1y ago

Oh yeah the token grows in length very quickly, we also tried using it 5 years ago to pass in roles to the client and ended up with many issues

cyberax 1y ago

Authorization is really not a generally solvable problem. Every large system ends up having its quirks. Attempting to generalize it ends up in pain, suffering, and AWS IAM.

khana 1y ago
[dead]

JimDabell 1y ago

You might want to check out Biscuit: > Biscuit is an authorization token with decentralized verification, offline attenuation and strong security policy enforcement based on a logic language — https://www.biscuitsec.org https://www.biscuitsec.org

kgeist 1y ago

>We experimented once with trying to put permissions on a JWT (more complex than your popular scopes) but that makes them grow quickly. We solved it by simply using bitmasks. Say, you want to encode an access rule "allows reading from Calendar objects". The typical CRUD actions can be encoded with 4 bits. For example, all bits are zero => no access. The first bit is 1 => can create. The second bit is 1 => can read. Etc. Then, say, if your system has 32 different types of objects, you can say that, "position 13 encodes for calendars". So you get 32*4 = 128 bits, i.e. just 16 bytes to encode information about CRUD rules for 32 different types of objects. Sure it sounds complicated but if you move it to a library, you stop thinking about it.

hirsin 1y ago
That works as long as you have no distinctions between objects of a type. _Which_ calendar can they edit? All of them? Putting all the repos you can access into a token is a request we get sometimes. It would be... Difficult.
- kgeist 1y ago
  I agree it doesn't work for all cases. In our case, some services can have complex, service-specific access control logic that's hard to express declaratively in a token, so we also have to make some checks by consulting the DB. I don't think that's usually a problem (performance-wise) because we already need to contact the DB anyway - to retrieve the entity to work with (and that has, say, an OwnerID property). The access token helps reduce DB load by skipping general checks ("can the user access calendars in principle?"), and for users who can, we then consult the DB additionally, if the service requires it ("is the user actually the owner of this calendar?" or any other additional access logic). The general case "can the user access calendars in principle?" also allows to hide menu items / return 403 in the UI immediately with zero DB or cache cost.

mparnisari 1y ago

Check out https://zanzibar.tech/ https://zanzibar.tech/