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> it's an EAW we're discussing, after all --- and can't normally charge him until they have done so. You keep repeating this, and people keep demonstrating tha

> it's an EAW we're discussing, after all --- and can't normally charge him until they have done so. You keep repeating this, and people keep demonstrating that it is untrue. Edit: And just to be clear, you believe you know more about this than a constitutional law prof from the EU (the author of the reddit comment), correct?

Kell 14y ago
Huh ? Where ? I've seen one intent to show it's untrue (in this thread) and honestly the arguments where bogus. I don't know Swedish law at all. But actually in French law (my domain of study) in a criminal case assigned to a "Juge d'instruction" (who acts more or less like a prosecutor), no indictment ("mise en examen") is possible without a physical presentation to the "Juge d'Instruction". So I know of at least One other set of laws where the idea that someone cannot be charged without a formal presentation to the "prosecutor" is a fact, so it's not unthinkable that the Swedish law can be similar in that matter. And you will need more than : "No it's not true" to convince me that three consecutives Courts including a High Court made a mistake on this point. Edit about your edit : I think that your argument of authority is invalidated by the presence of three decisions by UK courts that took their decisions after hearing counsels and legal experts on both sides of the question.
- toyg 14y ago
  Yes, and the EU court determined that such a requirement does not waive the right to appeal a sentence. Which means somebody can actually be charged in absentia without legal repercussions, so it doesn't really matter whether they're present or not. From what I've heard, France is currently changing its system to reflect these rulings. Btw, your own appeal to authority is pointless: I'm sure the courts of China are also always right in their decisions. We're all human, we all make mistakes, we all suffer from external pressures. The UK High Court is as highly politicised as any similar body around the world, and has quite an appalling record on civil liberties in general (from libel laws to Pinochet). It's not unthinkable that they might have ruled as they did because the UK establishment is aligned to US interests -- they are even adopting names from the US system! We now have a Supreme Court and a number of Secretaires who used to be Ministers...
  - Kell 14y ago
    I'm not sure about what you're saying... but if you're saying that the fact that ECHR considers judgments in absentia to be of no legal repercussions... means that a State can pursue charges in absentia even more easily... well... I think, in my understanding of Law, that you are wrong. It means that pursuing charges in absentia... is of no legal repercussions (duh). So the accused is entitled a right to a full fresh re-trial... not an appeal. Because it's like if nothing was done. That's why States try to avoid this... It's waste of ressources, because a sentence is of no use... Anyway there is going to be a full retrial of the first instance. And there is a lot of things changing in French procedural law... but this is not changing. Judges of Instructions are not considered against ECHR and the rule that make it a requiremnt to present a suspect before the judge before any indictment... is actually more respectful of ECHR law than otherwise (see. 5.3 of the European convention on Human Rights). And btw you know, China is not the UK or Sweden... Oh and please ? Are you serious about the "adopting names from the US System" isn't that a proof of submission !" No it's not...
    - toyg 14y ago
      Charging or accusing is one thing, passing judgement another. From http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/yh6g6/why_didnt_the_uk_government_extradie_julian/c5vn3ue http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/yh6g6/why_didnt_the_uk_... : > The French penal procedure used to demand similarly that a suspect should surrender and go to prison on the eve of his criminal trial. The European Court consistently found this a violation of 6§1 in a string of cases (Omar, Guerin, Khalfoui, Goth, Papon, Coste, Morel, Walser, etc.) that eventually managed to have the French law amended. There is not much wiggle room here: Assange has a fundamental right to be questioned by the prosecutors without having to surrender to Swedish police. And of course UK and Sweden are not China, but please point me to the law that says they will never become like China; in the UK, there isn't even a codified right to freedom of speech as it is, as witnessed by the horrendous libel laws. In any case, the US-led program of "extraordinary renditions", which was carried out by UK and Sweden in earnest, is not very different from what a Chinese government would enact; nor are the kangaroo courts that will judge (maybe, one day, if they ever feel like) Pvt. Manning, or the "legal acts" that put people in Guantanamo indefinitely and without due process. There are no "good governments" or "bad governments", they're all different shades of grey and they change with the times. (Btw, I'm sorry that you fail to appreciate the extent of the current state of the "special relationship", but I can ensure you that it's really troubling. In the last 15 years, US foreign policy has been enacted without fail by successive UK governments, and the encroachment of US-born ethos and culture on British public discourse has been relentless. We joke of becoming "Air-Strip One", when in fact we're basically already there.)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rprasad 14y ago
Except that it is true. The reddit citations are simply the reddit poster's poor understanding of the facts, which do not reflect reality. Lesson to learn here: do not cite reddit as a factual source.

Kell 14y ago

Huh ? Where ? I've seen one intent to show it's untrue (in this thread) and honestly the arguments where bogus. I don't know Swedish law at all. But actually in French law (my domain of study) in a criminal case assigned to a "Juge d'instruction" (who acts more or less like a prosecutor), no indictment ("mise en examen") is possible without a physical presentation to the "Juge d'Instruction". So I know of at least One other set of laws where the idea that someone cannot be charged without a formal presentation to the "prosecutor" is a fact, so it's not unthinkable that the Swedish law can be similar in that matter. And you will need more than : "No it's not true" to convince me that three consecutives Courts including a High Court made a mistake on this point. Edit about your edit : I think that your argument of authority is invalidated by the presence of three decisions by UK courts that took their decisions after hearing counsels and legal experts on both sides of the question.

toyg 14y ago
Yes, and the EU court determined that such a requirement does not waive the right to appeal a sentence. Which means somebody can actually be charged in absentia without legal repercussions, so it doesn't really matter whether they're present or not. From what I've heard, France is currently changing its system to reflect these rulings. Btw, your own appeal to authority is pointless: I'm sure the courts of China are also always right in their decisions. We're all human, we all make mistakes, we all suffer from external pressures. The UK High Court is as highly politicised as any similar body around the world, and has quite an appalling record on civil liberties in general (from libel laws to Pinochet). It's not unthinkable that they might have ruled as they did because the UK establishment is aligned to US interests -- they are even adopting names from the US system! We now have a Supreme Court and a number of Secretaires who used to be Ministers...
- Kell 14y ago
  I'm not sure about what you're saying... but if you're saying that the fact that ECHR considers judgments in absentia to be of no legal repercussions... means that a State can pursue charges in absentia even more easily... well... I think, in my understanding of Law, that you are wrong. It means that pursuing charges in absentia... is of no legal repercussions (duh). So the accused is entitled a right to a full fresh re-trial... not an appeal. Because it's like if nothing was done. That's why States try to avoid this... It's waste of ressources, because a sentence is of no use... Anyway there is going to be a full retrial of the first instance. And there is a lot of things changing in French procedural law... but this is not changing. Judges of Instructions are not considered against ECHR and the rule that make it a requiremnt to present a suspect before the judge before any indictment... is actually more respectful of ECHR law than otherwise (see. 5.3 of the European convention on Human Rights). And btw you know, China is not the UK or Sweden... Oh and please ? Are you serious about the "adopting names from the US System" isn't that a proof of submission !" No it's not...
  - toyg 14y ago
    Charging or accusing is one thing, passing judgement another. From http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/yh6g6/why_didnt_the_uk_government_extradie_julian/c5vn3ue http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/yh6g6/why_didnt_the_uk_... : > The French penal procedure used to demand similarly that a suspect should surrender and go to prison on the eve of his criminal trial. The European Court consistently found this a violation of 6§1 in a string of cases (Omar, Guerin, Khalfoui, Goth, Papon, Coste, Morel, Walser, etc.) that eventually managed to have the French law amended. There is not much wiggle room here: Assange has a fundamental right to be questioned by the prosecutors without having to surrender to Swedish police. And of course UK and Sweden are not China, but please point me to the law that says they will never become like China; in the UK, there isn't even a codified right to freedom of speech as it is, as witnessed by the horrendous libel laws. In any case, the US-led program of "extraordinary renditions", which was carried out by UK and Sweden in earnest, is not very different from what a Chinese government would enact; nor are the kangaroo courts that will judge (maybe, one day, if they ever feel like) Pvt. Manning, or the "legal acts" that put people in Guantanamo indefinitely and without due process. There are no "good governments" or "bad governments", they're all different shades of grey and they change with the times. (Btw, I'm sorry that you fail to appreciate the extent of the current state of the "special relationship", but I can ensure you that it's really troubling. In the last 15 years, US foreign policy has been enacted without fail by successive UK governments, and the encroachment of US-born ethos and culture on British public discourse has been relentless. We joke of becoming "Air-Strip One", when in fact we're basically already there.)

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rprasad 14y ago

Except that it is true. The reddit citations are simply the reddit poster's poor understanding of the facts, which do not reflect reality. Lesson to learn here: do not cite reddit as a factual source.